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Mark_Wallace wrote: If you can't play nice with the other kids, everyone loses -- you, your colleagues, and the company.
I have to agree with every bit of what you said so far. Unfortunately, in our industry (software development in general) soft skills are rare to find, specially having a good political attitude.
I have myself struggled over the years to grow up and learn to deal with things I do not agree with and one of my greatest lessons was to not go cry for the boss. I have made that mistake already and I have also learned that going directly to the person I disagree with rendered much better results.
Most of the time when I would approach the person directly, the results were positive. They would listen to me and even when we could not reach an agreement, our relationship did not deteriorate. And surprisingly, most of the time the relationship improved, they would come to me for advice and even recognize my ideas to upper management.
All in all, I learned that by swallowing my pride, I couldn't go wrong; and eventually it ceased to be difficult to do it. Being humble, being right or wrong (yes, it happens) tends to work on your own benefit.
I never have to say: "I told you so!". With this type of attitude, it becomes unnecessary.
This is one of the things I believe the younger ones need to be better educated about. There should a dedicated class in this area in every college, I wish this could be learned outside the scope of real life experience, not sure how feasible this is.
I heard you mention something about a book you wrote. Care to share an amazon link?
Cheers
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
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Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I've bookmarked your message, to show to people. Having a "from the horse's mouth" personal anecdote like that is worth any amount of trying to explain to people where they might be making their own lives more difficult.
On schooling: I've often thought of putting down some points on this topic, to be used in a class, but the thought of such material being used by organisations that anally and robotically follow processes has put me off, every time I've sat down to do it -- visions of employees of a certain petrochemical company (that shell remain nameless) mindlessly ticking off what they've "achieved" during the day flood my brain:
"I've chatted with so-and-so, as it says to do in paragraph 11; I've arranged a catch-up meeting with thingummy, like in section 3a; and I've defused a potential problem by following the first stages of the 'admitting a weakness' chapter. That's a good day's work! Now I only have to follow the steps in section nine, and I can ask for a promotion!"
God only knows how they ever get anything done.
It's Marc Clifton who writes all the books, around here. I only write, well, just about everything else.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: I've bookmarked your message, to show to people.
This makes me happy. Hopefully, we can reach and enlighten more people.
Mark_Wallace wrote: God only knows how they ever get anything done.
I hear you, I've experienced myself situations where playing by the book becomes more important than the mission it's trying to accomplish.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Ah! Got it!
I said "In my book, ~~".
Unfortunately, that's just an expression that you use to indicate that you're stating a strong opinion.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Right... Not being a native speaker of the language makes me miss this kind of stuff sometimes.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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That's cowardly nonsense: if you can't stand up for yourself you'll get pounded and that'll be the first guy to do it.
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Hwuh?
You're talking to me, here. I've been in bar fights.
The point is that you go to work to earn a living.
In order for you to earn a living, your company has to be profitable, and run smoothly.
Picking fights because you think you can do someone else's job better than him (whether it's true or not) will in no way help you to achieve your objective (of making a living), and, if you upset too many people, may even result in your having to try and earn your living elsewhere.
A few people in this thread have given their personal experiences and opinions on how to handle such a situation, but the only ones who have said the situation actually improved are those who said that they did not go out of their way to make anyone look like an idiot, but instead used their brains and focused on doing things that would resolve the situation, rather than escalate it.
You are not at war with your colleagues, and your objective has got nothing to do with belittling your colleagues.
If anyone doesn't think those two statements are true, then the person who is preventing the company working smoothly (and therefore endangering the objective of making a living) is not the guy who is writing code (poor or otherwise), it's the guy who is causing friction and political battles between colleagues.
Any idiot can cause trouble, run to tell mummy tales, and call people cowards. I thought developers were meant to be more intelligent than any idiot.
You won't solve a programming problem by giving your computer a show of ego, and, somewhat unsurprisingly, a show of ego doesn't solve any other kind of problem, either.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Nobody said anything about picking a fight: those are your words. I said to stand up for yourself and make yourself heard above the babbling incoherence of stupidity that infests so many companies.
To give an idiot your time and ideas is to waste them. And if you won't go around someone even when that would directly help the company then you do that company a dis-service with your ever-so-'umble politics.
If you don't take risks, if you don't challenge people you will never get anywhere. If you are happy with that then fine; if not, then do something.
Mark_Wallace wrote: I've been in bar fights
Ooh, quivering. What a childish threat: no wonder you won't stand up to anyone.
Mark_Wallace wrote: You won't solve a programming problem by giving your computer a show of ego, and, somewhat unsurprisingly, a show of ego doesn't solve any other kind of problem, either.
Ego is your word, not mine. No one said ego had anything to do with it. You have a very narrow, child like view of the world. No risk, no reward. You can approach the manager without shoving your ego out in front of you.
Remember, you are trying to help the company, not hurt it. If you can't articulate that properly then sure, don't do it. Mouse up and sit in the corner or give in to the office idiot.
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Going to someone's boss to tell him that he's an idiot is a good way to pick a fight.
Calling people cowards is a good way to pick fights.
Take a step back, look at what you're doing and saying, and then picture how you would feel if someone else did or said such things to you.
Your perspective on this thing has been egoistic and aggressive. Those are not endearing qualities, so don't be surprised when people get pissed off with you, and respond egoistically and aggressively (which I haven't, for which you can thank your lucky stars).
Bear in mind that the biggest problem is that if everyone is posturing egoistically and aggressively, no work gets done, so everyone's objective of making a living is endangered.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Going to someone's boss to tell him that he's an idiot is a good way to pick a fight.
You are a very poor communicator: no one said call him an idiot except you.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Calling people cowards is a good way to pick fights.
You're welcome, coward.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Take a step back, look at what you're doing and saying, and then picture how you would feel if someone else did or said such things to you.
a) never happened.
b) I would confront them (I don't have a problem with confrontation).
Mark_Wallace wrote: Your perspective on this thing has been egoistic and aggressive.
Neither, actually. Ego doesn't come into it and I am not really aggressive except when confronted.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Those are not endearing qualities, so don't be surprised when people get pissed off with you, and respond egoistically and aggressively (which I haven't, for which you can thank your lucky stars).
Haha. You are a funny little man. How childlike to threaten over the internet you idiot.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Bear in mind that the biggest problem is that if everyone is posturing egoistically and aggressively, no work gets done, so everyone's objective of making a living is endangered.
Perhaps in your childish, ego-laden world where everyone walkson eggshells and everyone gets bullied because no one stands up for themesleves.
And your constant references to how tough you are - hilarious. I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you are not what you advertise yourself to be: anyone that feels the need to point it out... is not.
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tl;dr
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're a tough guy and everyone had better keep out of your way.
Do you know how many employees with that kind of attitude I've had to deal with?
Come work for me; you might learn something about being a bearable colleague.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I'm not tough at all, I'm a real softy. I just stand up for myself and don't get pushed around by meathead jerkoffs like you. If you were my employee... Well, actually, I wouldn't employ anyone who has to say how tough they are. And work for you? Unlikely, I have met many like you over the years - they all have one thing in common - they think they have to tell you how tough they are. Stupid. Don't say - do.
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tl;dr (as in it's longer than zero words)
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Yeah, like I said, big on words but a bit of a coward. Have a nice day.
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mark merrens wrote: If you show it to him, he'll just steal it and the credit.
Stealing it and the credit is, I think, not the best way to think about helping the code nonja. Both work for the same company; the company owns all the work done there; hence, there is no theft involved.
Besides, needing to get the credit would imply that one's own ego is a little too wrapped up in the job. Helping your cow-workers get some credit gives you a warm feeling inside and benefits the company, too.
-- Will
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That's not the scenario described with the person involved. Under normal circumstances happy to share anything but you must know your audience.
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Because making an enemy of someone who is very persuasive to management is an extremely bad idea.
This. Don't do it.
You've said that you don't have to work with the guy directly, so I say take a zen approach and let the amateurish code flow by you like water. It's not your problem, but if you step into it you will make it your problem, and while you may be able to fix the code fixing the political situation may be a different matter.
If you go to management, they aren't going to understand what you're saying. They're going to go to someone else to evaluate what you're telling them, and guess who they're going to ask? That's right, the guru, who will likely (and accurately) see you as attacking his professional reputation. If he is persuasive with management, that means that you can only lose that fight.
Let it go, is my advice. You have a lot to lose and little to gain. If you really want to change things, build your own reputation with projects that don't threaten the guru, and cultivate a relationship with management that will allow you to give them advice that they will listen to. Don't go about it by attacking the work of someone with more political power than you've got, you won't win.
Pick your battles, man.
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Sound advice.
Had a similar situation, I ended up re-writing three projects...
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Best advice so far. Your reaction belongs to you, not him. Use the meetings for a bit of meditation.
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Because making an enemy of someone who is very persuasive to management is an extremely bad idea.
DING DING DING DING, you are the winner!
I agree wholeheartedly, I've made that mistake myself (several times)
First, you are trying to change the perception that management has of this person. Their egos do not take kindly to the realization they have been wrong. It is easier to make you out to be the person that is wrong instead of them.
Second, the person you are showing up is not going to like it either, he may think you are threatening his job and possibly you want his position.
Best advice I have, is to approach the programmer and make him see the light. You don't have to be confrontational to do that, just give him a few gentle suggestions. If he does not react well to them, give up, his is a lost cause.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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BrainiacV wrote: You don't have to be confrontational to do that, just give him a few gentle suggestions. If he does not react well to them, give up, his is a lost cause.
Exactly, I feel that you should try to approach him nicely, but it may fail as there are a lot of people that are too cocky to admit they are wrong or are willing to listen to others. I'd rather not engage in discussions with them when I realize they are not reasonable. If you do, its likely that they will take it personally and attack you with nothing but insults.
The statement below illustrates what how I feel:
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I work in a similar environment where I'm the only real programmer. Management isn't evil man, just talk to them. Work on your people skills. They still may wish to use Excel for quick and dirty things, and that's ok. It's not the end of the world. But ranting about it online while thinking they're stupid in real life doesn't exactly make for a healthy work relationship.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: But ranting about it online while thinking they're stupid in real life
OK, my mistake, then I have probably misunderstood the point of the Internet. 
I just needed to vent out. Talking to management won't change anything, or in the best case end up for more work for me ("It can be done better ? Then do it yourself"). What probably drives me mad is that it is yet another example of a workplace where millions are invested in development&research for the product, but not for the SW tools that help developing it. For that part, it is OK to let a computer-illiterate handle database development with worldwide multi-location deployment, cross-application data exchange, interface to ERP, etc... 
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Rage wrote: OK, my mistake, then I have probably misunderstood the point of the Internet.
Touché! 
Rage wrote: For that part, it is OK to let a computer-illiterate handle database development with worldwide multi-location deployment, cross-application data exchange, interface to ERP, etc...
BS sells man. Same thing with most things in life, like with magic health pills and fad diets. Take the new next thing magic pill that's never worked before while avoiding the fact you don't need the pill at all. Sometimes, it's just how about how you present your point and the energy behind it. Like when it comes to sales, people buy crap from people they like. The crap they're buying really doesn't matter. A good salesman can sell ice to an Eskimo because his customers like him and people listen to people they like and vice versa.
Jeremy Falcon
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