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That's not the scenario described with the person involved. Under normal circumstances happy to share anything but you must know your audience.
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Because making an enemy of someone who is very persuasive to management is an extremely bad idea.
This. Don't do it.
You've said that you don't have to work with the guy directly, so I say take a zen approach and let the amateurish code flow by you like water. It's not your problem, but if you step into it you will make it your problem, and while you may be able to fix the code fixing the political situation may be a different matter.
If you go to management, they aren't going to understand what you're saying. They're going to go to someone else to evaluate what you're telling them, and guess who they're going to ask? That's right, the guru, who will likely (and accurately) see you as attacking his professional reputation. If he is persuasive with management, that means that you can only lose that fight.
Let it go, is my advice. You have a lot to lose and little to gain. If you really want to change things, build your own reputation with projects that don't threaten the guru, and cultivate a relationship with management that will allow you to give them advice that they will listen to. Don't go about it by attacking the work of someone with more political power than you've got, you won't win.
Pick your battles, man.
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Sound advice.
Had a similar situation, I ended up re-writing three projects...
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Best advice so far. Your reaction belongs to you, not him. Use the meetings for a bit of meditation.
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Because making an enemy of someone who is very persuasive to management is an extremely bad idea.
DING DING DING DING, you are the winner!
I agree wholeheartedly, I've made that mistake myself (several times)
First, you are trying to change the perception that management has of this person. Their egos do not take kindly to the realization they have been wrong. It is easier to make you out to be the person that is wrong instead of them.
Second, the person you are showing up is not going to like it either, he may think you are threatening his job and possibly you want his position.
Best advice I have, is to approach the programmer and make him see the light. You don't have to be confrontational to do that, just give him a few gentle suggestions. If he does not react well to them, give up, his is a lost cause.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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BrainiacV wrote: You don't have to be confrontational to do that, just give him a few gentle suggestions. If he does not react well to them, give up, his is a lost cause.
Exactly, I feel that you should try to approach him nicely, but it may fail as there are a lot of people that are too cocky to admit they are wrong or are willing to listen to others. I'd rather not engage in discussions with them when I realize they are not reasonable. If you do, its likely that they will take it personally and attack you with nothing but insults.
The statement below illustrates what how I feel:
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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I work in a similar environment where I'm the only real programmer. Management isn't evil man, just talk to them. Work on your people skills. They still may wish to use Excel for quick and dirty things, and that's ok. It's not the end of the world. But ranting about it online while thinking they're stupid in real life doesn't exactly make for a healthy work relationship.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: But ranting about it online while thinking they're stupid in real life
OK, my mistake, then I have probably misunderstood the point of the Internet. 
I just needed to vent out. Talking to management won't change anything, or in the best case end up for more work for me ("It can be done better ? Then do it yourself"). What probably drives me mad is that it is yet another example of a workplace where millions are invested in development&research for the product, but not for the SW tools that help developing it. For that part, it is OK to let a computer-illiterate handle database development with worldwide multi-location deployment, cross-application data exchange, interface to ERP, etc... 
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Rage wrote: OK, my mistake, then I have probably misunderstood the point of the Internet.
Touché! 
Rage wrote: For that part, it is OK to let a computer-illiterate handle database development with worldwide multi-location deployment, cross-application data exchange, interface to ERP, etc...
BS sells man. Same thing with most things in life, like with magic health pills and fad diets. Take the new next thing magic pill that's never worked before while avoiding the fact you don't need the pill at all. Sometimes, it's just how about how you present your point and the energy behind it. Like when it comes to sales, people buy crap from people they like. The crap they're buying really doesn't matter. A good salesman can sell ice to an Eskimo because his customers like him and people listen to people they like and vice versa.
Jeremy Falcon
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Then I am doomed: I am a social bitch. People would not take gold from me, even if I would give it away for free.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Don't be so hard on yourself man, I'd be more than happy to take gold for free from you... because that's how much I care.
Jeremy Falcon
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So it sounds like the real problem is management, are you going to go to management and complain to them about that? Point out how they've been failing all this time?
It's not your job or responsibility to run the company. Maybe you know a thousand ways to do things better, but the sharpest knife is the one that cuts most deeply. You can't fix management from below, you can only make enemies that way.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Management isn't evil man
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If management sides with an idiot and/or a know-it all, and your complaints go unanswered/unheard, then you have to make two decisions, continue to work in that environment or leave.
I, usually leave.
edit: luckily, I have had to leave only twice in my career and it was for the better.
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Slacker007 wrote: If management sides with an idiot and/or a know-it all,
I'm willing to bet this "know-it-all" guy is just really outgoing. Maybe charismatic. Not saying it's smart or right, but I'm willing to bet he's a talker and can connect with people.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: 'm willing to bet this "know-it-all" guy is just really outgoing. Maybe charismatic. Not saying it's smart or right, but I'm willing to bet he's a talker and can connect with people.
Like you? 
No thanks. Not for me. It has been my experience that the know it all, really doesn't know anything.
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Slacker007 wrote: Like you?
Gotta work on your social skills man.
Slacker007 wrote: No thanks. Not for me. It has been my experience that the know it all, really doesn't know anything.
You have to assume you're a know-it-all to actually buy into the fact someone you don't like knows nothing. There are different types of intelligence, and memorizing things from a book does not make you experienced or all-knowing.
Jeremy Falcon
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Slacker007 wrote: No thanks. Not for me. It has been my experience that the know it all, really doesn't know anything.
And I'm not trying to say the some know-it-all tech type guy knows his tech. But he knows how to talk and voice his opinion. Which counts for something, especially when speaking to people that don't know what we do and have no way to trust a coder that doesn't speak up.
Jeremy Falcon
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Sounds like a struck a nerve. 
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Nope. It's called communicating. Try it.
Jeremy Falcon
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Just out of curiosity... do you work for Siemens Automation?
I ask because I often wonder if their software people are brain dead.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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Been exactly where you are, the Form is done, everyone thinks it's a five minute job to wire it up! 
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glennPattonPUB wrote: everyone thinks it's a five minute job to wire it up!
So true, I don't whether to laugh or cry.
"Isn't done yet?" 
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
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