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Since the 1980s the US public school systems have been in decline.
More like since the 1950s. By 1960 logic and critical thinking had been removed from curriculums, and then the gradual decline in literacy and mathematics.
Much of what U.S. high school students are doing is what 5th and 6th grade students are doing in most countries. If anyone excels in the U.S. public schools they are either very self-motivated or have strong interest and encourgement at home, where they are learning most of what they know.
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Member 14192382 wrote: and then the gradual decline in literacy and mathematics.
I doubt either of those are true.
Certainly the literacy part is not.
National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL) - 120 Years of Literacy[^]
As for math figuring out what the actual achievement levels are is very difficult. Exams that attempted such measurements varied widely for very long periods of time.
So exactly what objective data are you using to make the claim that math achievement has changed between now and then? What is the name of the test that was used in that period?
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I am European, living in the US of A now for 26 years. And I can only concur that both literacy and math are the worst areas of US general education. I see this with clients, when they are complaining how their word processor is marking so much of the text they write has those annoying red squiggly lines all over the place. Or they don't understand why Grammarly keeps suggesting changes to their sentences, that honestly don't make any sense when looking at them.
And general knowledge in math is abysmal, barely anyone can do any kind of basic calculations in their head but need to whip out their trendy smartphone and then try to find the calculator on it. About 80-90% people fail basic multiplication/division before addition/subtraction rules. Or don't question the results of computer based calculations when the end result is obviously wrong due to bad input. Which should have been obvious as they ended up with a 40% difference. Like in an architects office calculating the usable square footage of a 5 story building but only adding up 3 of those 5 floors...
There is a reason why most students in spelling bees or math Olympiads are South and East Asian or (Eastern) European heritage. But hey, all those math challenged US folks are proud to use those most illogical Fred Flintstones units and don't fail to try to convince you why this is sooo much better than using metric... 
And in regards to "writing software", in the last couple decades, the level of actively applicable knowledge, rather the latest "software paradigm of the week", has indeed significantly dropped. All those Kool Koder Kidz think they are the bee's knees, great in story telling to get hired by yet another failed startup, while lacking even basic knowledge of "algorithms and data structures".
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Ralf Quint wrote: I can only concur that both literacy and math are the worst areas of US general education
Perhaps. But that is different than saying it was better in the past.
Ralf Quint wrote: Or don't question the results of computer based calculations when the end result is obviously wrong due to bad input.
First that isn't really a mathematics problem. Well educated (mathematics) people have either accidently or deliberately misused mathematics for a very long time.
Second there is an ongoing and recent problem at least in the social sciences where studies that have been well regarded (and referenced) for decades have been found to be non-repeatable. Multiple studies. Thus there is a push to make the analysis (mathematics) use a more rigorous standard to find a 'success' result. They used the math correct the first time but it was not sufficient to be scientifically valid.
Ralf Quint wrote: There is a reason why most students in spelling bees or math Olympiads are South and East Asian or (Eastern) European heritage.
Except of course that is not a 'school' problem. It would of course be a cultural (home) problem.
Ralf Quint wrote: in the last couple decades, the level of actively applicable knowledge, rather the latest "software paradigm of the week", has indeed significantly dropped.
What is definitely true in the past couple of decades is that volume of choices has gone up significantly. And attempting to choose the 'best' choice was always subjective. More choices is not going to help with that.
Ralf Quint wrote: great in story telling to get hired by yet another failed startup,
Well known that all companies, regardless of business domain, fail at a very high rate. True now and true more than two decades (maybe three) when I first saw that stats on failures. The small strip mall by my house which probably has 20 companies but less than 5 have been there more than 5 years. And that is not just related to covid. Probably easier for a software company to fail because it is also easier for them to start up. A retail store needs inventory to open and that requires more capital than a software shop.
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Steve Naidamast wrote: Since the 1980s the US public school systems have been in decline.
So, you're born in the fifties?
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Yes... 1950...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Steve Naidamast wrote: Since the 1980s the US public school systems have been in decline.
That of course has nothing to do with it. Whether true or not.
For starters of course, developers as a group, have more education and are more likely to have been better students in schools.
And people creating problems that could have been avoided is hardly something new. Wright 'designed' Fallingwater in 1935. So the premier architect managed to design a house that failed from its very creation. Presumably using the 'best' engineers of the time. Decades later it was determined that the design never would have worked at the time. (Presumably they too were focused on the solution and failed to see the problems.)
Steve Naidamast wrote: The Taiwanese company that agreed to build a new semi-conductor plant in the US has now put an indefinite hold on the project since it cannot find enough technical talent in the United States who can manage the various job requirements the new plant was expected to provide...
Not true at all.
First the problems right now are due to construction problems - not production, not chip design problems.
So no idea what problems might develop when it is online. But reasonable to suspect that they are going to have trouble because they will not be willing to pay the much higher costs for talent versus what they expect in Taiwan.
Second Taiwan is suffering its own talent pool shortage in tech jobs. So obviously their school system is not meeting the demand.
Additionally the Taiwan school system is rigidly controlled by the national government. This includes military training at the high school level. Comparing it to the US is not valid because I suspect if the US attempted the same it would require a US Constitutional Amendment to enforce. Not to mention the cultural ideology that drives performance where the family's public reputation is based on the student's performance. Not even sure how one would attempt to move to that in the US besides generations of forced ideological education, which would be sure to run up against religious doctrine.
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I don't understand where you are getting your facts from...
It is already well documented and a known fact in the US employment market that graduating university students from US universities are not doing very well. In many cases it is being found that university graduates do not even have credible levels of reading skills. And many schools no longer teach "cursive", which was a foundation for writing skills.
As for the idea that many professional technicians are better trained than the majority of other workers does not strike me as really realistic considering the worsening problems with business web sites.
The adoption of stupid development paradigms over the years has made corporate development endeavors a nightmare for many with many professional technicians complaining that web development is becoming an impossible endeavoir to do well.
The advent of Microsoft's push for the use of the MVC paradigm in 2010 began this mess in web development but the original catalysts for that were the ideas that came out of the failed Chrysler C2 Payroll system whose lead developers produced the XP development paradigm and paired-programmming, one of the dumbest concoctions the profession ever came up with. When this failed, they moved to Agile, which attempted to dilute solid software engineering principals for the sake of speed of development.
Recently an article has been written that describes the increasing rates of burnout from the DevOps paradigm, another stupid concept, which attempts to meld quality control with development teams.
All of this is a result of stupid technical management that simply want to support business' even more stupid deadline constructs.
Where do you believe all this crap came from? Stupid people!
As to the Taiwanese education system, on average, Asian students are far superior to their White counterparts in the United States as parenting in the US has taken a serious turn for the worse given that so many parents carter to the children's every whim while allowing them to use technologies with abandon. The result is that many White students are basically graduating from university with the maturity levels of vegetables.
All of this has been well documented in the past 10 years, so I have no idea where you are able to make the statements you do, unless of course you are not well read yourself...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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I see a lot of rhetoric and opinion in what you posted. Yes I have seen those same sort of opinions. But I like to see some data when I read stuff like that.
Steve Naidamast wrote: It is already well documented and a known fact in the US employment market that graduating university students from US universities are not doing very well.
Versus?
In the US 50 Years ago? When there were a LOT fewer students even going to college? Seems like that would have an impact.
Versus other countries? How exactly are you making those comparisons? Is there a world wide standardized test that I am unaware of? Which tests are you looking at exactly?
Steve Naidamast wrote: As for the idea that many professional technicians are better trained than the majority of other workers does not strike me as really realistic considering the worsening problems with business web sites.
First I specifically referred to education and not how well they could do a job in the market place. Certainly true when I went to college, more than 40 years ago, that the many Communications majors and Psychology majors were not in fact trained to do anything. Matter of fact I was not only told but had it technically demonstrated to me that an Electrical Engineer graduate could not make a commercial electrical product on graduation. The education provided did not make one production ready.
Second, data on what you claim? How exactly did they compare 'worse' web sites with now versus some, as unspecified, time in the past?
What I do know is that web sites are far more complex than even 10 years ago much less 20. And complexity, not knowledge, is going to have a substantial impact. I know this specifically because I am working with products (plural) that provide that service and quantify the problems.
Steve Naidamast wrote: The advent of Microsoft's push for the use of the MVC paradigm in 2010
MVC was first introduced in 1979. Like many things Microsoft does they merely jumped on the bandwagon that was going by.
Steve Naidamast wrote: Recently an article has been written that describes the increasing rates of burnout from the DevOps paradigm,
Do you really think this is something new? Look to the copyright date of the book "Death March" by Ed Yourdon which is 1997. Keeping in mind that he would have started writing it before then.
Steve Naidamast wrote: As to the Taiwanese education system, on average, Asian students are far superior to their White counterparts in the United States as parenting in the US has taken a serious turn for the worse given that so many parents carter to the children's every whim while allowing them to use technologies with abandon. The result is that many White students are basically graduating from university with the maturity levels of vegetables.
Which ignores the factor of how many people think degrees are needed now.
For comparison in the US in 1960 less than 10% had a college degree. Now it is 37%. Do you really think that humans got that much smarter?
Educational attainment in the U.S. 1960-2021 | Statista[^]
Very long ago I was knew a manager of a MacDonald's that went to college because the franchise owner decided that all managers must have a college degree. Any college degree would do. Myself I don't think that retail managers need a degree. And in fact Walmart does not require a college degree for general managers. They do however require prior experience - actual work experience.
Not to mention that you do realize that the emphasis in US universities has changed during that time period? The public funding for universities has declined significantly, so they need to bring in more money. And certainly professors are aware of the need to bring in revenue. Are you claiming that could have no possible impact?
If you really want to get excited about something you should look to the declining interest in the trades. The average age for a master plumber now is 58. And that is going up.
Perhaps instead of worrying about the how a web site looks you should worry more about whether your toilet is going to be working 20 years from now.
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Cool story (not in the sarcastic way).
That is a pretty big oversight.
Game developers sometimes make this mistake in early iterations. It's becoming less common with Unity/Unreal driving so much.
It's still pretty dang cool they're writing mass bot network kill switches though.
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Noone knows how to write software anymore because managers force employees to use shiny new no/low code and AI tools even though those tools produce results that are inferior to what can be built and maintained by a trained engineer with traditional robust languages.
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A man comes to a small village and asks in a bar: "Tell me, do you have hookers here too?" "Well no," says the landlord, "we only have our Klaus!"
The man looks a little confused and says:
"It doesn't matter, I'm so horny I absolutely need sex. How much does it cost?"
The landlord: "Well, it costs EUR 80!"
"Okay, and how does it work then? I give Klaus the EUR 80 and then f***ing?"
The innkeeper: "No, not quite. Our mayor gets EUR 40, it's his village and he doesn't really like it that much. Then he's calm and doesn't say anything."
"Then Klaus only gets 40 EUR, I don't care."
"Hmmm... not that either. I get 20 EUR, this is my hotel and I don't like it that much either!"
"I should be fine, so I'll give Klaus the 20 EUR and then we'll start, yes?"
"Wrong again, Michael and Stefan share the last EUR 20, they hold Klaus tight, because he doesn't like it that much either.
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Sick as it is, it made me laugh. 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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is creating antifreeze antibodies to AI:
yes, i do get micro-sleep episodes where verses with 5/7/5 syllables appear: perhaps related to syncope (passing out, or almost passing out), and yes, i've had scans of brain, carotid. adrenal plumbing, heart. thyroid, etc.
examples:
who believes that an
AI murdered me, and my ghost's
filing a lawsuit ?
decorations on
improbable surfaces
AI's paint on code
AI spiral stairs
that keep winding down until
you are all wound up
AI bank: i thought
long-term code deposits raised
mind's interest rates
is this healthy ?
p.s.
disclosure: most of these were repurposed to mention AI; was the involuntary urge to do that a side-effect of AI resistance ?
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
modified 2-Sep-23 20:50pm.
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AI hype abounds
Logic urges resistance
but it is futile.
My sorry attempt above just means that I think AI will become a ubiquitous norm. But, I think we're heading toward the peak of a hype cycle now. So, like you, I have healthy dose of skepticism at least for the time being. After we live through the so-called trough of disillusionment then we'll see what we have going forward. Just my (maybe not so) humble opinion.
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all you need is a five syllable first line  FreedMalloc wrote: trough of disillusionment
i loved the slop served there ! 
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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There is no real AI yet. The hype we had was about a story generator that learns from the internet. Meaning, not everything is correct.
The progress is more in chatbots than AI.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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AI is not really AI
But ML marketed as an omnipotent Oracle
to the disappointment of all
Oh well, I tried.
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Not that it follows the structure but I can't resist, based on the old joke about the lady with checks:
AI bank: I thought
because I had a bank account
I could pay everyone
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a little syllable count tweaking ...
you down with me, and
my homies, rootin' in self's
underground playpen
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Wow, what the hell are y'all going on about? My five words
I am out of here.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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jmaida wrote: what the hell are y'all going on about
my Ai says it cannot answer that 
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Slightly off topic, but I saw what was supposed to be the ultimate Dad joke recently, and I immediately thought of you.
Dad:
Knock Knock
Son:
Who's there
Dad:
Hike
Son:
Hike Who
Dad:
Unsuspecting Son.
Dad waiting with bated breath.
Sets the perfect trap.
"Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read." Frank Zappa 1980
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grralph1 wrote: Unsuspecting Son.
Dad waiting with bated breath.
Sets the perfect trap
5/7/5  Hike ? i don't get it 
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Bill Wrote:
Quote: 5/7/5 Thumbs Up | Hike ? i don't get it Confused |
The key is in the Son’s question "Hike Who?".
Phonetically “Hike Who” = “Haiku”.
Thus the 5/7/5 relevant answer by the dad.
The son is unsuspecting just like I was when I first read it.
Took me a bit to get it.
Cheers.....
"Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read." Frank Zappa 1980
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