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Well said. 
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: You don't really see that type of passion in most industries.
Actually, I do. I know doctors and nurses that are incredibly passionate about their work. I play poker with guys that run their own construction companies, write editorials for news journals, work for drug companies, etc., and they all love their work. I know a lawyer that is passionate about their work in legal representation for women. They are all involved in "creating", whether it's a deck, an informative article, better medicine, better human conditions.
Jeremy Falcon wrote: As a whole, we're changing the planet.
With little ethics applied to those changes. 
Jeremy Falcon wrote: So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Yes, but then again, the industry is always finding itself, and whatever flash in the pan it finds itself in at the moment is often not one that I'm eager to partake in. That was the case when I was in my 20's, and is so in my 50's now as well. Actually, tech has itself made the flash-in-the-pan effect worse.
I don't know if I would go so far as to say we are right where we are meant to be. Literally where am I sitting right now (cubicle, insurance company) there are people around me that are doing what they are doing for the paycheck and nothing more. It's frustrating to be mostly surrounded by people that have passion only for the paycheck.
Personally, having gone through a soul searching process a few years back, I came to various conclusions that work for me:
- I'm better off if I ignore the industry, do what I'm passionate about doing, and look at the industry for "has it done anything useful that I can take advantage of?"
- balance that with the reality that sometimes I have to do something I have no passion for because, yes, I need the paycheck too.
- balance that with recognizing that the tech is irrelevant, and what I have passion for and what makes life worthwhile is the interactions with the people. Real interactions, not IM's, emails, Slack chats, etc. Interacting with tech ultimately is a rather hollow experience.
- balance my enthusiasm for hollow tech by writing articles to touch people's lives. Thank goodness for tech so that I can do that!
And the whole thing is balanced by doing non-tech things, from learning to play the lyre to hanging out in coffee houses for interesting random encounters with people to having a spiritual life that involves going to study groups and reading together with my gf.
Marc
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Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Marc Clifton wrote: Actually, I do. I know doctors and nurses that are incredibly passionate about their work. I play poker with guys that run their own construction companies, write editorials for news journals, work for drug companies, etc., and they all love their work. I know a lawyer that is passionate about their work in legal representation for women. They are all involved in "creating", whether it's a deck, an informative article, better medicine, better human conditions.
Marc, why are you trying to ruin my points with reason and logic? 
Marc Clifton wrote: Yes, but then again, the industry is always finding itself, and whatever flash in the pan it finds itself in at the moment is often not one that I'm eager to partake in. That was the case when I was in my 20's, and is so in my 50's now as well. Actually, tech has itself made the flash-in-the-pan effect worse.
I went through that same phase. I'm still going through it. Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of. People aren't aware of their instincts or senses anymore. It's like we're turning into machines that barely think under the illusion we think because we are in our heads. Which isn't always really thinking. Not to sound doom and gloom, but something should be done to change this. We're still humans - for now.
Marc Clifton wrote: I don't know if I would go so far as to say we are right where we are meant to be. Literally where am I sitting right now (cubicle, insurance company) there are people around me that are doing what they are doing for the paycheck and nothing more. It's frustrating to be mostly surrounded by people that have passion only for the paycheck.
But we are man. We're always where we are meant to be. Every choice we've made in life put us exactly where we are. And our choices dictate exactly where we are meant to be. Once that's accepted it's pretty liberating actually. Because we can always choose something else.
Marc Clifton wrote: Personally, having gone through a soul searching process a few years back
That's part of the wisdom that comes with introspection and aging and seeing and experiencing more of life I believe. Glad you did it man.
Marc Clifton wrote: I'm better off if I ignore the industry, do what I'm passionate about doing, and look at the industry for "has it done anything useful that I can take advantage of?"balance that with the reality that sometimes I have to do something I have no passion for because, yes, I need the paycheck too.balance that with recognizing that the tech is irrelevant, and what I have passion for and what makes life worthwhile is the interactions with the people. Real interactions, not IM's, emails, Slack chats, etc. Interacting with tech ultimately is a rather hollow experience.balance my enthusiasm for hollow tech by writing articles to touch people's lives. Thank goodness for tech so that I can do that!
I totally agree with what you've found out. For this reason I do not nor will I ever really like FB, etc. The key to remember is that we as a people still have control over where tech is headed. And so while I absolutely agree with you 100% on this, I'd like to think we can still have some influence on the direction of tech to ensure humanity stays in the picture of technology. And hey, CP is glad you're all about number 4.
You're right on the money though. I worked in the hospice industry. When people are on their deathbeds, the only regrets people have are not doing what they really wanted to do and if they had poor relationships. It's all about connections man. It's why we're here on this planet. Real ones. It's smart that you've realized that. I just submit we can still do something about it before we turn into robots completely.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of.
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people. They think that technology is our only salvation, so they bow to that god. If you can change their beliefs, you will change the world. But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed! 
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To Viviparous Mama.
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David O'Neil wrote: It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people.
Oddly enough I just got done reading this very sentiment in another post. Which I agree. I reckon it's more apparent in technology to people in technology, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to technology.
David O'Neil wrote: But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed!
Tru dat.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Every choice we've made in life put us exactly where we are. And our choices dictate exactly where we are meant to be.
I wonder about that (the difference between where we are and where we are meant to be) given that choice is not exactly as free as one would want -- family history, psychological problems, misinformation, etc.
This reminds me of something I read a while back by a biblical scholar of sorts, that the phrase Jesus uses in the Bible, "sin no more", is a directive to return to one's true purpose in life. For me that raises the complex question of knowing what my true purpose is, and going down that path (pun intended) brings up the question of how do I know that the choices I'm making are in accordance with my purpose -- in other words "exactly where I am meant to be."
I guess there are some questions one is meant to simply live with and be conscious of, and do one's best.
Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App
Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Marc Clifton wrote: I wonder about that (the difference between where we are and where we are meant to be) given that choice is not exactly as free as one would want -- family history, psychological problems, misinformation, etc.
But choice is free. I too grew up in a family of narcissistic liars that borderline on the psychology abusive. Went through the whole clingy and suicidal phase for it too. But the choice is ours. It always is. We cannot control what happens to us, where we are born, etc. But we can control how we respond to it. We've always had that power. And it's liberating actually since if we know it's of our own choosing we can choose differently.
So, we're always right we we're supposed to be. We chose it. I'm almost 40 and only recently have I decided to give up on my family. So I'm speaking from experience. But I did choose where my life is, right now. We all do.
Marc Clifton wrote: I guess there are some questions one is meant to simply live with and be conscious of, and do one's best.
I think about this stuff all the time too man. Like a lot. I did hear something I need to keep hearing over and over again. Basically, God's gift to us is our talents. Our gift to God is to use them and don't let it go to waste. And so our purpose in life is to live it to the fullest with your God-given talents. Otherwise we spit in the face of God. Makes sense too. If we give our kids something and they squander it we'd be thinking "wtf bro."
I'm willing to bet you any amount of money that deep down you already know what you're good at. Nobody else can do something quite like Marc Clifton can. There's your purpose dude. There's something deep down inside you that you want... that's God talking man. And after 40 years of life I'm finally learning this for myself... God's reward to us is in the form of feelings. God is energy. Feelings are energy. If you feel awesome more times than not then you're on the right path. If you feel like crap a lot then you're own the wrong path.
Yeah, only took 40 years to figure that out. Welcome to the wonderful world of overthinking.
Jeremy Falcon
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It seems like Marc has written most of my post already, much better than what I could've done. Just like with code. 
Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for. I suspect you would be better off swapping employer.
I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for.
Slowly but surely I'm starting to realize this too. I know when I've hired people I cared much less about things like degrees than way more about personality and desire to do good work. I believe knowing tech tidbit that anyone can Google is even secondary to that.
Jörgen Andersson wrote: I suspect you would be better off swapping employer.
Funny you should mention that. It's exactly what I'm doing. Yay.
Jörgen Andersson wrote: I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
Glad it worked out for you man. That's awesome.
Jeremy Falcon
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They do the hiring the same way as you did, except that they only demand good enough work. Knowing that with the right people they get good work done.
My manager learned how to manage at Deloitte&Touche, using the assumption that everything they did was wrong.
My boss might be the smartest person I ever met. He always understand what I'm talking about technically. (yes, that have to be considered rare for bosses in my experience).
Never bullshits, never takes bullshit. I've seen him walk out of a meeting with a customer that he couldn't stand. Respect.
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He sounds like a great guy man. It's like any relationship, great ones improve the quality of your life. Bad ones make it worse. I love the no BS attitude as well man. Glad you you're in a great spot.
Jeremy Falcon
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I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one.
I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font".
However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back.
Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense ) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringing in a wider array of talents and ideas.
I do feel, however, that we're living at the end of an age. Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared.
#goshdernit.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one.
Dude, some of the best conversations ever are done in a rocking chair... on front porch no less.
Chris Maunder wrote: I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font".
That's smart to have come out through the other end of being jaded. You're one step ahead of me in that regards. I think it's like our version of a middle-aged crisis man. We've seen things and have to come to terms with it. When I tell people the concepts of MVC and XML started back in the 60s and 80s they're shocked. Sure we called it something a bit different, but the concepts are exactly the same... just with smaller fonts now. This is just comes with experience man. It's like with JavaScript, we were doing functional programming before it was cool. Now it's cool. Yeah people still hate JavaScript, but it's cool to hate now.
Chris Maunder wrote: However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back.
Dude... two words Web GL. Live it. Learn it. Love it.
And yeah man, success is a double-edged sword at times. The bigger the site the less you can just go and change crap willy-nilly without impacting people. So you can blame David for marketing CP. It's all his fault. 
Chris Maunder wrote: Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense  ) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringing in a wider array of talents and ideas.
Totally agree. When you and I started the industry was pre-boom. Now look at it, it's almost hip to be in tech now. I don't think people fully realize yet just how much the 1900s will change the world.
Chris Maunder wrote: I do feel, however, that we're living at the end of an age. Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared.
You sure you're not getting old man? How about that front porch? I think we are reaching an end of what we are used to. Web 3.0 is something the world is not yet fully realized what it'll be like. Don't get me started on what Web 4.0 will be like. Privacy issues and tech seeming creepy when the web knows everything is just the beginning. The next wave 100 years from now people will have to adapt to is when we make the entire web artificiality intelligent. All websites talk to each other. It's like one big organism that's smart and learning on its own. It's coming man.
Jeremy Falcon
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Chris Maunder wrote: Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared.
I wish so much you were wrong 
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Omitted: the often omitted.
People doing basic research in fields like chemistry and physics.
All the nice toys depend upon them making the materials and means to realize them.
They've worked in the background - disdained and mocked instead of heralded with well deserved fanfare - for generations.
But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface. For example, look around your: where is there not the hand of chemistry?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I'm sure you're right. It's just noticeable in technology since we'll that's our industry.
W∴ Balboos wrote: But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface
Man this is so true on so many levels. It's sad, but it is what it is.
Jeremy Falcon
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I've been working at a career in tech (at one level or another) for 30+ years and I hear ya brother. I've been at one company the whole time and never played the "contractor for hire" game or "switch jobs every 3-5 years to get ahead" game that many of the folks here at CP seem to do. Maybe I've missed some (most?) of the BS then? But I do grow tired of the PHBs with MBAs and no common sense, the industry buzz words and constant language / model changes with no real gain. I've watched Apple, Novell, Microsoft, Lotus, Borland, FoxPro, Oracle, ad infinitum, etc... ebb and flow / come and go. I've watched the birth of the World Wide Web (mostly all good) and the death of dial-up (mostly all bad).
I used to spend nearly every waking moment (much to my wife's displeasure) working on a computer - either at work or at home. My priorities have changed dramatically over the years though. Now I go days or weeks without touching my home PC. I fiddle with an iPad most nights but not seriously doing much of anything.
At work I've risen (???) to a mostly management level - I still get my fingers dirty most weeks but it's in machine logic and CNC machining cycles not hardcore / high level coding.
I can't say I'm sick of the industry but I'm a bit jaded and I'm slow to get excited about the next great thing until it establishes itself, matures and shows a little staying power.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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I've been around longer than most (VAX-11, Sun-1). The excitement for me has always been about learning something new. This industry is perfect for people that are mesmerized by shiny new objects (technologies) and have a passion for solving problems with them. What could be more fun and rewarding?
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I was sick of it from day 1, but it pays so well.
IT is no hobby of mine, I keep my hobbies apart from work. Work is work. It pays the bills, well, and I am damn good at it because I always was a good designer, in any medium.
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Oooo, there's so much I could say in answer to that question....
It's something I go over and back on a lot. I started out in life as a pretty happy, simple country boy, working in a tool and die factory near my family home in rural Ireland. Being a contractor, I've had the opportunity to move around a lot, make serious money, see pretty things, etc. But to be honest, there are times when I feel like this job makes me feel old, bitter and jaded. So much of it is politics, drudgery, putting up with terrible work on the part of others, doing battle with boredom, frustration and the physical deterioration that comes with a sedentary job. It goes against a lot of my personal values to tolerate these things, so there is a more or less constant sense of grind.
But at the end of the day, I manage my time, I don't take the work home, I get the hell out of work before it's too late, I play my guitars, I run and ski and swim and I keep myself as happy and positive as I can. And at this stage of my life (36) it's likely that I should simply get used to the idea that this is, in fact it. So there's not much point in being angry about it.
It is possible, too, to find new things to keep interested in. You can filter out the airbrushed BS trends and find real, pragmatic projects that give value to the world. Learning new things is always fun.
Programmers are also generally funny people. So there's that. Don't start quoting Monty Python though, or you'll never finish the conversation.
I do wish there were more women in IT in general. It's a bit of a bloke-fest, and a female influence is, I have found, in general a good thing. Depends on the female, of course.
So, well, while I guess I don't know that I would say that I'm right where I should be, I'm not totally jaded by the industry. It comes and goes, happiness. 'Tis a fickle fish to catch.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know.
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I don't know. Really, I don't. At the moment all I can tell you is that it's best not to let all that creep through your defenses and take over your life. It's too short to waste any time arguing with idiots. Just let them go fall flat on their faces as often as they must. There is no law that requires you to join them.
Anyway, the way 'our industry' works and the daily insanity can erode any enthusiasm. Getting back on my feet is a matter of getting rid of everything that had gone the wrong way and find myself some new and interesting things to do. In fact, I already had deleted my CP account when this topic caught my eye. Now I have come back undead. Back in Black, so to say.
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"Computers enable you to waste time that would otherwise be very difficult to waste."
-- attributed to Richard Stallman
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I don't think it is limited to the tech industry, maybe not even industry in general.
A lot of this I believe is a side effect of today's society being lazy, complacent, greedy and used to getting everything it wants right now. If you can't give me what I want for the price I want and give me a result now, I will go get it somewhere else.
The results of today primarily being driven by technology though; so I guess technology may be a necessary evil. I just have mixed feelings to it as I see how de-evolving the effects are on people. And if tech can't fix it, I am sure that some legislative body will find a way to fix it and make it even worse.
The automobile is a showcase of all of this. We have tech that can determine if you should turn your lights on, and as a result people no longer know how to manually turn them on. I used to do my own oil changes as the seasons changed. Now I take it in when the light comes on (Honda actually says every 12 months if a light does not come on). How many people can use a map and figure out how to get where they are going today?
Director of Transmogrification Services
Shinobi of Query Language
Master of Yoda Conditional
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With 30+ years in this business I guess I qualify as an 'old timer' or just simply 'old'.
Here is my take on it Jeremy:
* I love my work.
* I hate my job!
The 'why' to both of these are nested in the corporate structure so many of us work under.
I enjoy nothing more than being presented with a set of challenges and being allowed to accomplished them in the most expedient manner I can. Once they have been accomplished I like to hone that solution so that it is as optimized as I possibly can make it. This is what I love about my work.
What I hate about my job is that fact that while typical management will declare till they are blue in the face that they not only endorse the position in the paragraph above, but that they also will support it and nurture the 'team' as they like to call us (which typically amounts to a few producers and a some peripheral butt kissers) to accomplished the goals set forth; they are all too eager to do exactly the opposite and will throw every obstacle to progress in the path of the 'team' that they can muster as they chase some illusive corporate fad that they are certain 'IS THE SOLTION'! In the meantime, ignoring the goal that was set, leaving the priority of that goal the same, insisting that 'the team' buys in to their madness not only with a hardy cheer, but to provide documented evidence that they indeed are buying in with their time. ONLY to at some point want to have a progress report on the that 'goal' back there that they now REALLY need completed!
That is the BS that I see. So I resign myself to do the best I can with the moronic direction given from above with the limited tools they are willing to provide (despite their claim of being vested in your success).
As for the percentage.. think it is more like 99.75% from where I sit.
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