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It seems like Marc has written most of my post already, much better than what I could've done. Just like with code. 
Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for. I suspect you would be better off swapping employer.
I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for.
Slowly but surely I'm starting to realize this too. I know when I've hired people I cared much less about things like degrees than way more about personality and desire to do good work. I believe knowing tech tidbit that anyone can Google is even secondary to that.
Jörgen Andersson wrote: I suspect you would be better off swapping employer.
Funny you should mention that. It's exactly what I'm doing. Yay.
Jörgen Andersson wrote: I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
Glad it worked out for you man. That's awesome.
Jeremy Falcon
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They do the hiring the same way as you did, except that they only demand good enough work. Knowing that with the right people they get good work done.
My manager learned how to manage at Deloitte&Touche, using the assumption that everything they did was wrong.
My boss might be the smartest person I ever met. He always understand what I'm talking about technically. (yes, that have to be considered rare for bosses in my experience).
Never bullshits, never takes bullshit. I've seen him walk out of a meeting with a customer that he couldn't stand. Respect.
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He sounds like a great guy man. It's like any relationship, great ones improve the quality of your life. Bad ones make it worse. I love the no BS attitude as well man. Glad you you're in a great spot.
Jeremy Falcon
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I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one.
I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font".
However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back.
Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense  ) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringing in a wider array of talents and ideas.
I do feel, however, that we're living at the end of an age. Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared.
#goshdernit.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one.
Dude, some of the best conversations ever are done in a rocking chair... on front porch no less.
Chris Maunder wrote: I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font".
That's smart to have come out through the other end of being jaded. You're one step ahead of me in that regards. I think it's like our version of a middle-aged crisis man. We've seen things and have to come to terms with it. When I tell people the concepts of MVC and XML started back in the 60s and 80s they're shocked. Sure we called it something a bit different, but the concepts are exactly the same... just with smaller fonts now. This is just comes with experience man. It's like with JavaScript, we were doing functional programming before it was cool. Now it's cool. Yeah people still hate JavaScript, but it's cool to hate now.
Chris Maunder wrote: However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back.
Dude... two words Web GL. Live it. Learn it. Love it.
And yeah man, success is a double-edged sword at times. The bigger the site the less you can just go and change crap willy-nilly without impacting people. So you can blame David for marketing CP. It's all his fault. 
Chris Maunder wrote: Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense  ) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringing in a wider array of talents and ideas.
Totally agree. When you and I started the industry was pre-boom. Now look at it, it's almost hip to be in tech now. I don't think people fully realize yet just how much the 1900s will change the world.
Chris Maunder wrote: I do feel, however, that we're living at the end of an age. Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared.
You sure you're not getting old man? How about that front porch? I think we are reaching an end of what we are used to. Web 3.0 is something the world is not yet fully realized what it'll be like. Don't get me started on what Web 4.0 will be like. Privacy issues and tech seeming creepy when the web knows everything is just the beginning. The next wave 100 years from now people will have to adapt to is when we make the entire web artificiality intelligent. All websites talk to each other. It's like one big organism that's smart and learning on its own. It's coming man.
Jeremy Falcon
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Chris Maunder wrote: Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared.
I wish so much you were wrong 
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Omitted: the often omitted.
People doing basic research in fields like chemistry and physics.
All the nice toys depend upon them making the materials and means to realize them.
They've worked in the background - disdained and mocked instead of heralded with well deserved fanfare - for generations.
But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface. For example, look around your: where is there not the hand of chemistry?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I'm sure you're right. It's just noticeable in technology since we'll that's our industry.
W∴ Balboos wrote: But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface
Man this is so true on so many levels. It's sad, but it is what it is.
Jeremy Falcon
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I've been working at a career in tech (at one level or another) for 30+ years and I hear ya brother. I've been at one company the whole time and never played the "contractor for hire" game or "switch jobs every 3-5 years to get ahead" game that many of the folks here at CP seem to do. Maybe I've missed some (most?) of the BS then? But I do grow tired of the PHBs with MBAs and no common sense, the industry buzz words and constant language / model changes with no real gain. I've watched Apple, Novell, Microsoft, Lotus, Borland, FoxPro, Oracle, ad infinitum, etc... ebb and flow / come and go. I've watched the birth of the World Wide Web (mostly all good) and the death of dial-up (mostly all bad).
I used to spend nearly every waking moment (much to my wife's displeasure) working on a computer - either at work or at home. My priorities have changed dramatically over the years though. Now I go days or weeks without touching my home PC. I fiddle with an iPad most nights but not seriously doing much of anything.
At work I've risen (???) to a mostly management level - I still get my fingers dirty most weeks but it's in machine logic and CNC machining cycles not hardcore / high level coding.
I can't say I'm sick of the industry but I'm a bit jaded and I'm slow to get excited about the next great thing until it establishes itself, matures and shows a little staying power.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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I've been around longer than most (VAX-11, Sun-1). The excitement for me has always been about learning something new. This industry is perfect for people that are mesmerized by shiny new objects (technologies) and have a passion for solving problems with them. What could be more fun and rewarding?
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I was sick of it from day 1, but it pays so well.
IT is no hobby of mine, I keep my hobbies apart from work. Work is work. It pays the bills, well, and I am damn good at it because I always was a good designer, in any medium.
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Oooo, there's so much I could say in answer to that question....
It's something I go over and back on a lot. I started out in life as a pretty happy, simple country boy, working in a tool and die factory near my family home in rural Ireland. Being a contractor, I've had the opportunity to move around a lot, make serious money, see pretty things, etc. But to be honest, there are times when I feel like this job makes me feel old, bitter and jaded. So much of it is politics, drudgery, putting up with terrible work on the part of others, doing battle with boredom, frustration and the physical deterioration that comes with a sedentary job. It goes against a lot of my personal values to tolerate these things, so there is a more or less constant sense of grind.
But at the end of the day, I manage my time, I don't take the work home, I get the hell out of work before it's too late, I play my guitars, I run and ski and swim and I keep myself as happy and positive as I can. And at this stage of my life (36) it's likely that I should simply get used to the idea that this is, in fact it. So there's not much point in being angry about it.
It is possible, too, to find new things to keep interested in. You can filter out the airbrushed BS trends and find real, pragmatic projects that give value to the world. Learning new things is always fun.
Programmers are also generally funny people. So there's that. Don't start quoting Monty Python though, or you'll never finish the conversation.
I do wish there were more women in IT in general. It's a bit of a bloke-fest, and a female influence is, I have found, in general a good thing. Depends on the female, of course.
So, well, while I guess I don't know that I would say that I'm right where I should be, I'm not totally jaded by the industry. It comes and goes, happiness. 'Tis a fickle fish to catch.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know.
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I don't know. Really, I don't. At the moment all I can tell you is that it's best not to let all that creep through your defenses and take over your life. It's too short to waste any time arguing with idiots. Just let them go fall flat on their faces as often as they must. There is no law that requires you to join them.
Anyway, the way 'our industry' works and the daily insanity can erode any enthusiasm. Getting back on my feet is a matter of getting rid of everything that had gone the wrong way and find myself some new and interesting things to do. In fact, I already had deleted my CP account when this topic caught my eye. Now I have come back undead. Back in Black, so to say.
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"Computers enable you to waste time that would otherwise be very difficult to waste."
-- attributed to Richard Stallman
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I don't think it is limited to the tech industry, maybe not even industry in general.
A lot of this I believe is a side effect of today's society being lazy, complacent, greedy and used to getting everything it wants right now. If you can't give me what I want for the price I want and give me a result now, I will go get it somewhere else.
The results of today primarily being driven by technology though; so I guess technology may be a necessary evil. I just have mixed feelings to it as I see how de-evolving the effects are on people. And if tech can't fix it, I am sure that some legislative body will find a way to fix it and make it even worse.
The automobile is a showcase of all of this. We have tech that can determine if you should turn your lights on, and as a result people no longer know how to manually turn them on. I used to do my own oil changes as the seasons changed. Now I take it in when the light comes on (Honda actually says every 12 months if a light does not come on). How many people can use a map and figure out how to get where they are going today?
Director of Transmogrification Services
Shinobi of Query Language
Master of Yoda Conditional
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With 30+ years in this business I guess I qualify as an 'old timer' or just simply 'old'.
Here is my take on it Jeremy:
* I love my work.
* I hate my job!
The 'why' to both of these are nested in the corporate structure so many of us work under.
I enjoy nothing more than being presented with a set of challenges and being allowed to accomplished them in the most expedient manner I can. Once they have been accomplished I like to hone that solution so that it is as optimized as I possibly can make it. This is what I love about my work.
What I hate about my job is that fact that while typical management will declare till they are blue in the face that they not only endorse the position in the paragraph above, but that they also will support it and nurture the 'team' as they like to call us (which typically amounts to a few producers and a some peripheral butt kissers) to accomplished the goals set forth; they are all too eager to do exactly the opposite and will throw every obstacle to progress in the path of the 'team' that they can muster as they chase some illusive corporate fad that they are certain 'IS THE SOLTION'! In the meantime, ignoring the goal that was set, leaving the priority of that goal the same, insisting that 'the team' buys in to their madness not only with a hardy cheer, but to provide documented evidence that they indeed are buying in with their time. ONLY to at some point want to have a progress report on the that 'goal' back there that they now REALLY need completed!
That is the BS that I see. So I resign myself to do the best I can with the moronic direction given from above with the limited tools they are willing to provide (despite their claim of being vested in your success).
As for the percentage.. think it is more like 99.75% from where I sit.
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Hmm. I'm not jaded about the work I do: UI's for commercial ink-jet printers. I know I'm sick, but I like doing UI stuff. I don't even mind (too much) the stuff I do as the DSJB(*), admin'ing our source control and build servers, backups, and so on.
(*) Departmental Sh!t-Job Boy
The thing that has me burnt out though are the politics, the nonsensical re-organizations, and the layoffs every six months for the last five years. At last count I now have the responsibilities previously held by eight separate people. Admittedly some of those weren't full-time, but my workload is easily 4-5 times what it was in the early 2010's. Of course I haven't become all-powerful and 100% efficient since that time, so there's a lot of stuff that simply doesn't get done.
Here's an example. Our bug list classifies items as enhancements (it would be nice), cosmetic (wrong color), minor (hey, it might cause a fire), major (it's on fire), and critical (we're on fire). My boss has explicitly instructed me to not work on any item classified minor and below. There's a whole lot of low-hanging fruit there that could improve customer satisfaction that won't get fixed. It's frustrating as hell.
I compensate by running long distances (up to 10 miles last Sunday) and riding my bike to work every chance I get. Keeping my brain saturated in endorphins seems to help.
Software Zen: delete this;
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I feel the same way but haven't figured out how to regain the passion. I still love it just don't want to do it any more. If that makes since. Been struggling with that for 2 years now. For a week or two I have a surge where I am really hyped to work on something. Then after that wears off I spend 3 or 4 months dread doing it. The really hard part is programming is the only thing I know. I have been doing it for most of my life and would be lost with out it.
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Can you find a piece of it which ignites (or keeps going) the fire while dealing with the rest of it?
I think I'm much in the space you're describing.
What I've found is that it's the problems which are interesting, not the technology to solve those problems. The analytical part, like looking at thing X and thinking about how to refactor, or how to add new functionality Y is more interesting to me than the actual implementation.
So, if I can do some of that mixed in with the day-to-day drudgery, that keeps me going. For now.
Of course, sitting in useless meetings, wasting time listening to idiot managers jibber-jabber brings me down. But, that's going to happen anywhere. All we can do is try to minimize those things.
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I'm a lawyer but program for a living, if that tells you anything 
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I've lost and regained the passion for software development a couple times in my 30 year career, mostly due to the company I was working for at the time being too damn cheap to invest in the tools needed to move the product forward or provide the needed staffing or the manager(s) getting caught up in the latest buzz words and thinking they knew better than the developers how to create good software.
The last time this happened I resorted to building auto-cross race cars in my off time to stimulate my creative needs. Resulted in me now owning 2 very fast "race" cars plus I learned to weld, spray paint, tune suspensions and rewire modern fuel injected engines. Exploring the engine control systems I came across a DIY fuel injection system (Mega-Squirt), built one and end up modifying the open-source firmware to provide capabilities I needed. Rekindled my passion for software and got me more involved in low level embedded work.
So, there is hope in the tech related world if you get too jaded/burned out by all the BS involved in the day-to-day grind of corporate software development.
Ken W.
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I'm in jaded mode at the moment. I use to love programming - I've been doing it for 45 years; but it has become commoditised. Agile / scrum means we are interchangeable components, effectively code-monkeys, small cogs in large wheels. We no longer 'own' our work; no-one cares about elegance and beauty in the code; there is no sense of achievement - it's just a case of getting a small piece of work done and then doing the next small job. Even my home projects have languished as my disillusionment with work tasks has taken the shine off my home programming. Would moving to another job help? Probably not - it could be out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I know that I am fortunate - if I had been a few years older, there is no way I'd have made the grade of those hype intelligent pioneers of the computing world. If I had been a few years younger, I would have hated 'Computer Studies' being all about business and infrastructure and very little about programming and design. Modern programming has simultaneously 'dumbed down' the skill set (I'm from the generation that did not see the need for compilers - they only do what you you've already done in your head) and has complicated everything - you no longer just write a program that does something; you have to know dozens of frameworks, technologies, design patterns etc even to do simple tasks.
I used to write large systems / applications; now all I do is fix figures in reports and add views in databases. Job satisfaction? You decide.
I suppose it is the same in all maturing industries. We were metaphorically exploring the uncharted wild west, now we are cruising in air conditioned cars on a motorway. Yes, you get to the destination quicker and more comfortably; but where is the sense of adventure, danger, excitement and achievement?
Give us a meaningful, significant project that is challenging and rewarding (intellectually) where we can use our unique insights and innovations and we will stop being jaded. Treat us as unskilled production line workers and we will stay depressed.
Despite all that, I love programming, I love the folks around me in the office. I am living in the best possible time in history being paid for being involved with something that I am passionate about. So why am I still jaded and miserable?
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jsc42 wrote:
Despite all that, I love programming, I love the folks around me in the office. I am living in the best possible time in history being paid for being involved with something that I am passionate about. So why am I still jaded and miserable?
That encapsulates so much of what I feel day to day. Nicely articulated.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: And yet, we do this because we're creators.
You nailed it. I started in software development in the late 90's because I was striving for a means of fullfilling creative expression. I've made it a point over the years ensure the products I engineer are clean, visually unique, and expressive of my personality.
A few years ago I really felt like I had arrived. 15+ years of experiences in a very diverse product environment gave me great satisfaction and gratitude. Since that time I've watched the technologies I'd devoted so many late nights studying and mastering basically die (GDI/WinForms, ASPNET WebForms, etc) and be completely replaced by newer (presumably better) frameworks (WPF, MVC, Store Apps, etc).
Its a crushing feeling having to endure the thought of starting all over again every 5-10 years having to learn the latest framework (or hotness). Sometimes I just wish I had gone into pure engineering or some other industry. After all math doesn't change often, nor do most of the principles and tools in use in most other industries.
I seem to spend most of my times these days porting code for problems I solved years ago in one platform over to whatever the newest platform is since the youngsters demand everything be written in whatever is the flavor of the month happens to be.
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