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Quote: 1: bacon
And coffee. Don't forget the coffee! 
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Pizza, bacon pizza!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Quote: Pizza, bacon pizza!
And coffee, Coffee, COFFEE!
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Others did it and it seemed cool and smart to do so I did.
Subculture: Girls won't be attracted to that, play lead guitar or better yet, drums.
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My answers:
Question 1.) Why do you program, and what attracted you to programming in the first place?
The chicks! Nah! I got stuck with it, I'm a hardware guy who basically got stuck with VB6 thing that didn't work.
Question 2.) Do you see any problems or future problems that could arise within the programmer subculture?
The issues, well the lack of bacon & ![Beer | [beer]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif) and the limits of processor technology.
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- Mid-life crisis!
- Mid-life crisis!
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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From someone at the tail end of a programming career.
- The endless challenge of keeping up with software tools. The challenge of deciphering the specs from business. There was no attraction, it was a tool used to help sell stuff!
- There is a subculture? Where... It is difficult to identify problems from the inside, oh wait, yeah bacon, a definite lack of bacon!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Answer 1: I program now because it's my career. I've been a professional programmer for 35 years, I'm pretty good at it, and it supports me and my family. I grew up watching the Gemini and Apollo launches. While I liked the idea of being an astronaut, the thing that really fascinated me was the idea that computers controlled the whole thing. I wanted to learn how to do that. I took a programming seminar in high school, plus my step-dad built a home-brew computer we learned how to program together. I majored in computer engineering in college, and figured out that I was much better at software than hardware. I've spent most of my career on data acquisition and process control applications.
Answer 2: I think one of the more fundamental problems in the culture arises from the communication gap between ourselves and the organizations that employ us. We don't understand them and their requirements. They don't understand the implications of some of their decisions, especially when they change their minds mid-stream. Like I said, I've been at this for 35 years. This poor communication is just as much of a problem now as it was when I started. In some respects the problem's gotten worse, due to unmet promises from heavily-promoted methodologies that are only partially or incorrectly applied.
When I started programming, we were finally leaving the era of programmers as high priests, inaugurated into the mainframe's mysteries, when users made offerings to receive the priest's blessing. We were entering a period when becoming a programmer was a practical choice for a lot more people than an isolated few. Now, anyone can and does learn how to program. Significant numbers of people are self-taught and earn some sort of income through programming. This has created an organizational mind-set that programming ability is a commodity. Fifty off-shore programmers at $10/hour are just as good as ten local programmers at $50/hour. The problem with this idea is that it does not take into account the fitness of those teams to their tasks. That team of fifty might work perfectly well for a line of business, data entry application, where best practices are well-known and easily followed. Software that requires extensive domain knowledge and background experience could be more appropriately handled by the local team. The methodology gurus have unfortunately convinced the powers-that-be that the fifty programmers are just as good as the ten, if only you apply XYZ process to managing the project.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Gary R. Wheeler wrote: Software that requires extensive domain knowledge and background experience could be more appropriately handled by the local team.
That makes more sense than any other argument I can think of.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Answer 1: I've been doing this almost as long as Gary -- my college class was among the first (at that college) to graduate with an actual Computer Science degree. The short answer to why? I'm a geek at heart, I like building things, and IT looked good. Also, I had no other idea what to do with my life. Looking back over my career? I made a good choice. Yeah, I've had some bad assignments, but overall, life has been good and I've got more years to go. I like what I do.
Answer 2: Problems are legion. As Gary pointed out, bad communication is rampant. Some of that is our fault, not taking the time to understand the business or to look at things from our customer/client/business partner's POV. As much is on the other side, with folks who don't understand what they want, provide poor requirements, and/or think that computers are a magic bullet or (alternately) that we IT folks are disciples of the Devil.
Pointy Haired Boss type managers make it worse. Too many don't understand what their employees do, lack people management skills, and lack business management skills. [In contrast my current supervisor is a pleasure to work with.]
The solution to the above is often patience. When everyone treats everyone else as someone to learn from and focuses on getting the job done right rather than right now, things go better.
Following on with what Gary said, I see outsourcing as the #2 problem. Note that I'm speaking from a USA perspective with respect to onshore and offshore.
Part of this is communication, due to cultural and language differences. Things often don't get translated properly and the onshore company gets products that do not fit the needs. This often causes unpaid OT for the onshore IT folks, fixing things while not affecting the manager's bottom line. Or it causes business delays as things have to be redone to get them right. Plus timezone differences -- having your development team 10.5 hours ahead of you can easily cause a day delay on any given topic. As a manager for offshore teams, I typically conduct 7AM EST standups to give my teams feedback at the end of their day to set them up for their next day. This works, but requires diligent effort and (yes!) effective communication.
Along with that are personnel problems. IT is big business and at least some of the offshore workers are NOT fit for the job, they get hired 'cuz they have a pulse to fulfill a contract. It's harder to vet as the onshore folks are not directly interviewing many of the offshore people. IT is treated as a commodity, which foolish. In addition to technical skill set, a good IT person brings personal ability, general experience, and exact domain knowledge to the table. Plus a willingness to learn. THAT is critical for everyone.
The same managers who do blindly offshore work also believe that 9 committed women can make 1 baby in 1 month ...
Not that outsourcing doesn't work, but the offshore center requires a manager who can communicate effectively with his/her counterparts in the USA and BA and P/A with the right experience and domain knowledge. Both sides require excellent communications skills and patience. It's just not that easy.
Problem #3? Prima donna IT people. Too many people focus on what they are doing and don't see the bigger picture. They don't truly see the business need, nor understand that our job is generally to fill someone else's business or personal needs.
Which loops back to Point #1 ... communication ...
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Answer 1: Repaired computers on A6 aircraft while in the Navy (Viet Nam war). when I got out in '73, I got married and went back to College (B.S. Management). I needed a job and had "computers" in my resume. Got sucked-in from there. Took a 3 hour course in Basic programming, and started writing programs for my boss at the time. I was attending Law school at night by then.(graduated with JD in '80). Sold my first "commercial" program in '79. It was written in GW-Basic and a Radio Shack salesman (remember the TRS-80?) talked me into it. Went to work at a law firm for the next 2 years and 2 things happened simultaneously. I kept raising the price of the software but the RS salesman kept selling it. I also became increasingly disenchanted with the legal profession as a career. (Not enough BACON! ). The rest is, as they say history.
Answer 2: Currently, I am consulting, because the small developer is being squeezed out of the business. I still have a few clients (less than 10) across the southeastern U.S.
Problem 1 with the future caused this. The deliberate and wanton changing of operating systems and programming tools by Microsoft and others, to increase their bottom line and shareholder distributions by forcing customers to purchase new hardware and software. (Think Windows10 vs. XP, software as a service, the Cloud  . There is not enough time to redevelop packages written in one flavor of VS, before a new flavor of the month comes out. If the big corporations are struggling with this and pushing back (complaining) what do you think is happening to the small business like mine? Much less the small business that are my customers. The pace of change is not being driven by technical innovation, it is being driven by Greed.
Problem 2 Data security, hackers, crooks. If the big companies (Microsoft, et al.) put as much effort into making the o/s and development tools secure, as they do in marketing efforts (trying to keep up with the cool kids - think Apple), then they could put out products and let them stand on their own.
Problem 3 Vertical integration (the Apple model). When everything is proprietary, the talent pool and innovation that got the industry here today will dry up. thankfully I will be taking a dirt nap by then...
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Scott Thelemann wrote: Question 1.) Why do you program, and what attracted you to programming in the first place?
I fell into it by accident. I found myself out of work at the start of an academic year and got on a general IT degree course. At the end of it I found myself in a low-level IT role. A mate worked somewhere that was looking for programmers. They assumed I could code because I had an IT degree.
Scott Thelemann wrote: Question 2.) Do you see any problems or future problems that could arise within the programmer subculture?
My long term goal in life is to buy a new TV later this year. I don't do gazing into the future.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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1) Because people will pay me to entertain myself all day, pay proper obeisance because they may need my my help and support in the future and hope for a boon of cooperation, and it was good hobby to turn into a paying business.
2) The truly greatest problems are (a) foolish management who think it's cheaper to outsource development overseas, and (b) the bacon-sucking subclass who are probably the impetus for (a).
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Sorry, but around here you won't be taken seriously unless you ask for CODZ to go with your homework.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Question 1.) Why do you program, and what attracted you to programming in the first place?
I do not know. It tears my soul apart, destroys me, but I can't stop doing it. It's like falling in love, or more like eat very hot chilly food. In all three cases, when you seat on the toilet, you feel sorry about what you did.
Question 2.) Do you see any problems or future problems that could arise within the programmer subculture?
No problems, as long other people believe we are doing something important (and pay for it).
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1. Why do I program, and what attracted me in the first place?
At school I was into languages, history and music, never knew what I wanted to become. After school, my mom made me study Law. I loved Law, but couldn't see myself as a lawyer, and didn't know there was such a thing as research, so I threw in the towel.
I got a job as an admin clerk at a medical aid, and had to work on a thin client running a DOS program. After 3 years I resigned to sell shoes, but lost that job. With my first job's pension money, I did a secretarial course, and heard some of the other students talk about programming. I was intrigued, and swapped one of my modules to do QBasic. Upshot: I only got a "Computer Literacy" certificate but I was hooked on programming. I could tell the computer what to do!! It was heady stuff.
I program because I love to solve problems. I love to break a problem down into its smallest components, and then frame it in a way a computer can execute logically. I love the feeling of accomplishment when my code runs without problems, the instant gratification of creating something that works. And I love creating beautiful interfaces.
2. Do I see any problems or future problems arise in the programmer subculture?
1. We think we're pretty special because we can do this thing. This arrogance makes us resistant to correcting.
2. Being managed by people who don't understand what we do and how we need to work to be productive at it, trying to squeeze more code of stones.
3. Rise of the Bro-grammer, linked to a view of "you're a woman, what do you know?" (Mind you, not just brogrammers, either).
4. Considering all code as throw-away, and therefore not deserving of careful thought, devaluing the craftsman coder. Surely this is what a POC is, but regarding all code like that is causing problems already for the poor coders who have to maintain the POC that went into production.
5. Process over people, which is what Agile and Scrum are becoming. People differ, we don't all work in the same way.
My 2c, I'll go chain myself to the kitchen zink again  
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Ri_ wrote: 3. Rise of the Bro-grammer, linked to a view of "you're a woman, what do you know?"
Back in the age of dinosaurs, it seemed much closer to a 50/50 sex ratio, both in programming classes and the workforce. It's amazing that the arrival of the personal computer did so much to freeze women out- one of those bizarre unintended-consequences things.
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Question 1.) Why do you program, and what attracted you to programming in the first place?
I started programming cause I liked to create things... Right brained, but with a degree in Engineering, Left brained, I also loved to solve problems. So programming made sense on both fronts I could solve problems using software solutions.
Question 2.) Do you see any problems or future problems that could arise within the programmer subculture?
Yes, we could become our own worst enemy. Once computers can program themselves, we will wish we never created them...
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Question 1.) Why do you program, and what attracted you to programming in the first place?
Programming is very entertaining and it helps us to insulate our selves from the Muggels.
Question 2.) Do you see any problems or future problems that could arise within the programmer subculture?
More and more software development is being ruled by unskilled persons who can't understand why they have to scroll to read three thousand line document, and could I fix that and also make it 18 point type, it would make it easer to read.
Also diversity at the cost of skill; hiring people just to fill quotas. Most of us taught ourselves to code. Self teaching does not create barriers to anyone. I was the tutor for the programming classes I took while I was taking them. Programming requires talent and the will to be up at two AM figuring that how to code something no one else has been able to do.
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for the same reason John Dillinger robbed banks.
and to meet women.
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1(Why): To solve problems / puzzles. To make the computer DO something neat/new.
I remember my father on the phone dealing with an "OC7" - either "print the dump, I'm coming in" or some change that would make it run. I was prolly 12/13.
With ADD are two aspects: working on multiple things, hyper-focus.
2(Danger): H1B hiring to please the C-class and shareholders.
The nth level programming that is at a disconnect from real understanding of what data are / information mean.
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Scott Thelemann wrote: Question 1.) Why do you program, and what attracted you to programming in the first place?
Question 2.) Do you see any problems or future problems that could arise within the programmer subculture?
- Wanted to create games and it led to elsewhere. It also satisfies my creative urges along with my need to make.
- AI taking over the task of programming. Why is it that in Star Trek they have robots and nanobots making life easier so that no one has to work if they don't want to and yet we don't actually see that happening in the early stages?
I'm not a programmer but I play one at the office
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1. I bought a computer for my kids and started experimenting. It was so much fun that I just had to program. That was back in 1984 and I'm still at it (C#, Winforms). But I'm a much better designer than a coder. I code out of necessity.
2. Not sure what "programmer subculture" means but IMO many programmers do not have any real talent for their profession. They learned by rote (memorization) and their code and designs show it. They have to work much harder than I do because for me it's still a lot of fun.
BTW, it was very difficult for me to learn how to program. But when I got over the first hump it all came together. So I would encourage everyone in your class to at least get over the first hump and then see if they enjoy it. Not many things worse than having to do something you're not good at and don't enjoy everyday for 40 years.
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Why do you program: I like to create stuff.
What attracted you to programming in the first place? Games… Games… Games…
Current/future problems: I feel we need to stop comparing ourselves to others and start defining our own culture. We are not engineers! We have different problems and do different things for different reasons.
- great coders make code look easy
- When humans are doing things computers could be doing instead, the computers get together late at night and laugh at us. - ¿Neal Ford?
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According to Meyers-Briggs, I am an ISTP personality type. Programmers have likely strong analytical and problem solving personality types. It's all about the personality that keeps people involved in programming, because it's all about solving puzzles. You have to like solving puzzles.
There is definitely no real subculture about programmers/programming unless you are focusing on "hackers" and "hacking", otherwise, IMHO most people who have been coding professionally for over 10 years are pretty normal people. Some can appear to have some sort of personality disorder but it's likely they are shy and reserved and are just like everyone else -- only somewhat smarter than average.
The only future problem that I can think of is the "dumbing down" or attempt to simplify or automate the code creation process first through "boot camps" and then through software that automates the creation process for "dummies" so that anybody who can fog a mirror can select items from a UI and butta-bing-butta-boom! software is created.
Boot camps only have enough time to teach language syntax. Writing code involves much more than syntax and is more complicated than what can be taught in 4, 8, 12, or even 16 weeks. At least the software I maintain. We don't even have newbs or interns working with us.
I think you should focus your paper on the personality type and less on the notion of the subculture.
What other occupations do software engineers have in common with...
Electricians, electronics technicians, mechanics of all kinds, plumbers, millwrights, and even carpenters and steam fitters. Why? because they all involve troubleshooting and solving problems.
Capish?
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