Welcome to the Lounge

Joel Palmer18-Sep-13 15:53

Joel Palmer

18-Sep-13 15:53

Good point. I'll keep that in mind.

Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer

Richard MacCutchan18-Sep-13 4:39

Richard MacCutchan

18-Sep-13 4:39

Joel Palmer wrote:
do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?

The only people who could answer that would be your company's lawyers.

Veni, vidi, abiit domum

Maximilien18-Sep-13 4:55

Maximilien

18-Sep-13 4:55

They pay you.
The code is theirs, the knowledge is yours.

You've told them that it was not a good idea to give away the code, the final decision is with your boss'.

If they find out later on that it was a mistake, it will not be yours.

I'd rather be phishing!

Mike Winiberg18-Sep-13 20:58

Mike Winiberg

18-Sep-13 20:58

Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms.

Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8)

I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...

SortaCore18-Sep-13 22:37

SortaCore

18-Sep-13 22:37

I'm also in the UK. My contract said basically, anything I make for the company is their's, including ideas about their systems. Anything that I come up with that isn't related (i.e. a game idea in a mailing company) is mine.

Sentenryu19-Sep-13 0:48

19-Sep-13 0:48

You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.

I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)

"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241

"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"

SortaCore19-Sep-13 1:05

SortaCore

19-Sep-13 1:05

I'm curious now, if you were to get a virus because your company antivirus sucked, could you sue them if it ruined your personal files?

("personal" being "entirely created by your resources in your time for your stuff")

Sentenryu19-Sep-13 3:09

19-Sep-13 3:09

I don't think so, you aren't suposed to use company machines to store your files, and they aren't responsible for any non-company machines you plug on their network (most company's actually deny access to the network).

KP Lee19-Sep-13 17:15

KP Lee

19-Sep-13 17:15

Sentenryu wrote:
That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.

OK, now I'm curious.
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)
2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?
3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?

Sentenryu20-Sep-13 1:33

20-Sep-13 1:33

KP Lee wrote:
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)

2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?

3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?

After reading this i searched by the exact text of the law.

The rough translation of that specific law segment is as follow:

Quote:
§ 2 belong, exclusively, to the employee the rights concerning computer program generated with no relation to the employment contract, and without the use of resources, technological information, trade secrets and business materials, facilities or equipment of the employer, the company or entity with which the employer has the contract to provide services or the like, the service contractor or public agency.

(original text in portuguese, for the case there's another brazilian out there that wants to find this law (it's not easy) http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/Leis/L9609.htm#art16[^])

Looks like it's even more draconian than my teacher told us, the simple fact that you used the company space is enough, and that can be proven with the security cams.

But don't get me wrongh, i love that law, it even protects us from patent trolls!

Quote:

Article 5 The rights on derivations authorized by the rightholder of software, including its economic exploitation, are owned by the person authorized to make them, unless otherwise provided by contract.
[...]
III - the occurrence of similar program to another, pre-existing, when it goes under the functional features of your application, observance of precepts normative and technical, or limitation of alternative forms for its expression;

Basically, no one can claim patents on Lists and things like that, at least not on this country.

KP Lee20-Sep-13 8:53

KP Lee

20-Sep-13 8:53

If I read that right, the employee has exclusive rights to a computer program (s)he creates, if the idea didn't even partially come from the company and company resources weren't used. That's pretty standard in the industry. Even using their electricity would give them the right to claim the program. But first they would have to prove you used their resources to create it. Even with security cameras, I'd think they would have a tough time proving you worked on creating a particular program at work on your own time.

However, considering everything, even here, if you have an idea for a program develop it at home. If you don't have electricity at home work on the laptop until the battery runs low, take it to work, plug it in and work exclusively on company business. You can prove you used it exclusively for work and they would have a tough time proving you were stealing electricity to charge your battery.

ChandraRam18-Sep-13 5:01

ChandraRam

18-Sep-13 5:01

Joel Palmer wrote:
I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.

Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.

Depends on your contract, too, really.

Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon

harold aptroot18-Sep-13 5:12

18-Sep-13 5:12

ChandraRam wrote:
anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.

Is that even enforceable?

OriginalGriff18-Sep-13 5:27

OriginalGriff

18-Sep-13 5:27

Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.

The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.

Joel Palmer18-Sep-13 5:36

Joel Palmer

18-Sep-13 5:36

A form like that would not likely hold up in court... just like most non-compete clauses. However, I'm not a lawyer.

Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer

Michael Martin18-Sep-13 6:23

Michael Martin

18-Sep-13 6:23

OriginalGriff wrote:
Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.

I signed one of them years ago when I moved to a job paying 40%+ more. Went home the first day and wrote a program that printed CSC Australia diddle little kids all over the place. I can't believe the bastards didn't want the code.

Michael Martin
Australia

"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004

Boipelo18-Sep-13 6:52

Boipelo

18-Sep-13 6:52

In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.

I remain joe!

modified 18-Sep-13 13:06pm.

harold aptroot18-Sep-13 6:58

18-Sep-13 6:58

That's not actually the same thing as saying that anything you write (which could be, and probably is, something entirely unrelated to whatever you're doing at your job) in your free time is theirs as well.

Boipelo18-Sep-13 7:20

Boipelo

18-Sep-13 7:20

Correct, I got that wrong. Next time I should get a lawyer to read my contract and honestly I didn’t read my entire contract. I only checked the salary, benefits and leave days then signed on the dotted line – I was told by a colleague to check that clause, I have just verified it. Thanks let me go through the entire contract.

I remain joe!

Mark_Wallace18-Sep-13 20:30

Mark_Wallace

18-Sep-13 20:30

Several cases have shown it not to be enforceable, but the cost of fighting often outweighs any profit.

Other cases, claiming "intellectual copyright" have been upheld, where the knowledge to create the code was gained from the company (e.g. if they pay to train you to use specific things in specific ways).

The nastiest of those I've heard of was a guy who wrote a BASIC course book, which was based on a course that he created and implemented while working as a trainer for a company that has a girl somewhere. The company got 50% of the royalties (which IIRC, came to about three-pounds-fifty).

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

Sentenryu19-Sep-13 0:50

19-Sep-13 0:50

Here it is if you use any resource from the company, from internet connection to IP.

jschell19-Sep-13 11:51

jschell

19-Sep-13 11:51

harold aptroot wrote:
Is that even enforceable?

Yes.

If you work for a business that creates a banking application you are going to lose a suit where you create a banking application at home especially if the company allows you to work at home.

If you create a game then it is less likely but you better be sure that
1 - there is NO code from the company in it.
2 - there are NO ideas from the company in it.

So continuing with the same example above you shouldn't create a game that simulates banking nor should you create a game that mocks banking.

And the downside for most private individuals that a legal action by a company is going to impact the individual far more than the company even if the individual wins. So best to make sure they have no case to start with.

harold aptroot19-Sep-13 22:31

19-Sep-13 22:31

Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in your free time?

jschell20-Sep-13 8:03

jschell

20-Sep-13 8:03

harold aptroot wrote:

Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole
IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in
your free time?

Could be but they are going to claiming that you stole code and IP. After all the fact that the code is not in the work code base doesn't mean that you didn't write it during a time period when you should have been writing code from them.

And fair or not it is a matter of tracking what time was spent where and what ideas were used where. Unless someone keeps extensively detailed records then the subjective nature of the determination can be very detrimental in a number of ways to the individual.

harold aptroot20-Sep-13 8:07