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Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
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A form like that would not likely hold up in court... just like most non-compete clauses. However, I'm not a lawyer.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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OriginalGriff wrote: Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
I signed one of them years ago when I moved to a job paying 40%+ more. Went home the first day and wrote a program that printed CSC Australia diddle little kids all over the place. I can't believe the bastards didn't want the code.
Michael Martin
Australia
"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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In my case it is, it’s stated so in my employment contract and I am also not allowed to develop any product that does similar things/services that they are offering, I should rather advice potential clients to contact my company – there is a bonus if such potential client make an agreement with the company.
I remain joe!
modified 18-Sep-13 13:06pm.
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That's not actually the same thing as saying that anything you write (which could be, and probably is, something entirely unrelated to whatever you're doing at your job) in your free time is theirs as well.
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Correct, I got that wrong. Next time I should get a lawyer to read my contract and honestly I didn’t read my entire contract. I only checked the salary, benefits and leave days then signed on the dotted line – I was told by a colleague to check that clause, I have just verified it. Thanks let me go through the entire contract.
I remain joe!
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Several cases have shown it not to be enforceable, but the cost of fighting often outweighs any profit.
Other cases, claiming "intellectual copyright" have been upheld, where the knowledge to create the code was gained from the company (e.g. if they pay to train you to use specific things in specific ways).
The nastiest of those I've heard of was a guy who wrote a BASIC course book, which was based on a course that he created and implemented while working as a trainer for a company that has a girl somewhere. The company got 50% of the royalties (which IIRC, came to about three-pounds-fifty).
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Here it is if you use any resource from the company, from internet connection to IP.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241
"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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harold aptroot wrote: Is that even enforceable?
Yes.
If you work for a business that creates a banking application you are going to lose a suit where you create a banking application at home especially if the company allows you to work at home.
If you create a game then it is less likely but you better be sure that
1 - there is NO code from the company in it.
2 - there are NO ideas from the company in it.
So continuing with the same example above you shouldn't create a game that simulates banking nor should you create a game that mocks banking.
And the downside for most private individuals that a legal action by a company is going to impact the individual far more than the company even if the individual wins. So best to make sure they have no case to start with.
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Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in your free time?
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harold aptroot wrote:
Ok, but then surely the problem is that you stole
IP from the company, and not that you dared to be so bold as to write code in
your free time?
Could be but they are going to claiming that you stole code and IP. After all the fact that the code is not in the work code base doesn't mean that you didn't write it during a time period when you should have been writing code from them.
And fair or not it is a matter of tracking what time was spent where and what ideas were used where. Unless someone keeps extensively detailed records then the subjective nature of the determination can be very detrimental in a number of ways to the individual.
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Oh well I guess you're right. I'll make sure to read my contracts with that in mind.
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I haven't signed an agreement like that. Obviously, what is created during work hours is theirs. However, if I have a business on the side of writing an IOS app that has nothing to do with my employer I doubt there would be any court that would try to argue that it belongs to the company I worked for. With, or without, a signed agreement.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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Your employer would probably not bother, so long as your iOS app isn't minting money. Let it be known that it does, and then they _could_ argue that it belongs to them. My opinion is that anything can be made to stand in court so long as you have a "good enough" lawyer  , especially if there is a signed contract.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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ChandraRam wrote: I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
I worked for a large well-known software company for 20 years that had such a policy, though they did have a process by which you could get permission to do personal projects that were not on company time or resources if the project was not related to the company's business and didn't cause a conflict of interest. I went through the process once - IMHO it was more painful than it need to be, so then so are most things that involve lawyers.
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Using personal code in company code can be a legal minefield. There are many things that have to be taken into consideration and you really need to run this by the legal team.
1. If there is a problem with the code, where does liability lie? Does it lie with the company or with you?
2. What license agreement do you have in place on your code? If your code is GPL3 (for instance), and your company gives your code to the client, then they should be bound by GPL 3 as well if they included this code in one of their applications.
3. What does the contract between your client and your company say?
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This is the first entry that gave me some logic. Thank you. You've helped correct my thinking.
Mainly, #1. If I claim the code as my own then I could be liable. By working for a company that takes on that liability, it protects me from litigation. So, I don't want to claim the code as my own.
I've always had the thought that code is in a legal grey area because it is the product of my knowledge but it is not the end-product. The end-product is the .dll or the .exe that is compiled in the end and the company owns the end product. They definately don't own my knowledge and code is somewhere in between.
Of course I know that the stuff I write on company time is definately theirs. But, as I said in the original post, these libraries have been developed over my entire career. I may even have some that I made in school that proved to be useful (a long, long time ago).
So, these libraries are my bag of tricks. The company I work for at the time gets my bag of tricks when I incorporate them into the solutions I produce. At that point, the code is theirs.
#2 - I work for a small company that hasn't bothered making me sign anything.
#3 - I'm not privy to that.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote: My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward.
Great! However, what happens when you leave the current company and the client asks your old company to upgrade the code? Will you be leaving your helper code with your currently-on-good-terms-with boss so he can have your replacement continue to build on what you did? If so, then he may be able to "sell" them later and you may continue to build upon "your" code. This would obviously be forking the code. If on the other hand you're not leaving him "your" code and the code is needed to continue to build their project, then you're probably at fault since your company was probably under assumption that your work (helper code included) can continue without you. Like you said, it is a gray area. However, when you leave, you might get a call a few weeks later and, in which case, you'll either have to send them (your company) the code or burn bridges.
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I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves, I know one of my libraies started life as a VB5 calls in the mid 90s, it has been rewritten many times and is currently in c# servicing Silverlight apps. At least 12 organisations that I know of have had copies of the source in one form or another and all of them have the source.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: I am pretty sure he implied the source stays with his current employer if he leaves,
To me it implied he kept his code everywhere he went and only left DLLs and EXEs behind. Otherwise, every employer of his would have a copy of his code up to the day he left and he would be building on his copy at every new company, similar to your 12 organizations' copies. In this case, the point is moot since his employer could always share his code once he leaves.
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I always find this puzzling as it points to a different mind set, I can only work x number of hours in a day and I NEVER intend to sell software ever again so I'm happy for other to benefit from my code if they choose.
Others wish to "own" their code and see no benefit in sharing with others, I created this it's mine you hear all mine, you can use the DLL but the source is all mine. I don't consider this greedy or negative, just different to me.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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If I use my own libraries in the solutions I provide to my employer then at that point I believe I give up all rights to them. At that point, I've made a program that will not run unless those libraries are there. So, by including them with the solution I've given up any rights to them.
I'm now more convinced of this than ever because of a comment made above about liability. The company I work for takes on the risk and liability if my program goes terribly wrong for a customer. In that case, I don't want my name anywhere near the code... especially if they accuse us of doing something malicious.
Because the company takes on the liability they have the entire code base.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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That is usually the safe approach for an individual.
For third-party code (commercial businesses), they usually put some disclosure on the top of each file to the effect of "not being liable if something fails due to the use of their code" and "others not being able to resell the code for the purpose of selling the code, but being able to modify it for their own customizations without selling the modified code as stand-alone code".
You can always add something similar to yours when you give it up. Or you can just let them keep it if you're not actually making money independantly from them (royalties).
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Like so many others, you seem to be closing the gate after the horse has bolted, or whatever the saying is.
If you write code for an employer, then that code is owned by the employer.
If you already had some code and you used that in your employer's code base then, essentially, you wrote that code for your employer. You just did it VERY fast.
What you needed to do, if you didn't intend giving the rights to your employer, is make an agreement before you used your source code.
If you left your job tomorrow, would you delete the source of the code you had used from your library? If not, then what difference does it make? If so, then what is your current employer meant to do if they need to make a change?
I have had many an agreement to sign saying all the source code I develop while employer will belong to the company; I always make a change so that it defines the exact terms (e.g. code developed for their applications, during working hours.
Only ever had one company argue the point, as they were concerned I could duplicate their processes in my own software and so compete - so we worded it appropriately that I wouldn't work on any competitive product.
Frankly I have many many routines I use and have used in different jobs that make my life easier - and I have also learned from other devs code that they might have brought in from elsewhere.
I'm not making money directly from selling my code, so I'm more than happy to let people have it - in fact it gives me a buzz when I find that companies I have never worked for are using my code!
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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I solved this problem years ago by first granting full source rights to my employers (or those with whom I was contracting.) I got tired of this about ten years ago and just made all my bag-o-tricks libraries open source with a license very similar to ZLib. I put this on every non-disclosure and am very careful about what code is marked with the notice. I also make sure that I never mix company IP with these libraries.
Technically, you own the copyright, but you also likely modified your own libraries on your employer's dime and made it entangled. Moreover, if you didn't notify your employer that your software was covered by copyright, that would be highly deceptive, if not downright dishonest. To make it more complicated, since you likely wrote some of that code while in the employ of others, they could make an assertion that you stole their intellectual property, as could your current boss. (Even if all you did was improve your code on the side, you are still operating within the bounds of your employment duties.)
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