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When is the code I write mine?
I work for a company that creates solutions for manufacturing. Recently, we had a 500 lb gorilla customer request a code walk-through. I'm fine with that... but then they asked for a copy of the code.
My boss was okay with giving them the code because we were paid dearly for the project. However, like most of the developers I know, I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years. Many of them were started prior to this employer and I'll take copies of them with me when I go on to my next employer. They will continue to evolve over my career.
So, when we sold the code, I insisted that only the compiled .dlls of the helper files be given to them. They can have their soltion specific code but not my libraries. My boss was understanding and we moved forward. However, if he wasn't understanding and was a jerk-boss, do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?
Thanks for your help!
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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Not really. Developed on the job for the job belongs to the job.
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Yes I second this. This is what every company tells me when I join them. In fact, we have some strict guidelines not to use other companies libs without their permission. The library could have been developed by you in your last company but still they wouldn't encourage you to use this for your current work inside the office premises, PC. Unless the License info says it's completely free for commercial distribution.
Starting to think people post kid pics in their profiles because that was the last time they were cute - Jeremy.
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That's actually a law in my country. At least for 50 years, then it becomes public domain. Fun fact, the law is 30 years old and granted protection from the date it was published, so no code has ever falen in public domain yet =p
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241
"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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Depends on your country, and on your contract.
I, for instance, have no property about what I develop for/in my current company, e.g. the company owns everything. I cannot take that code over to other company, as you did (well, you could say you have "rewritten it" in the new company, so this is highly hypocritical anyway).
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Do not feed the troll ! - Common proverb
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Joel Palmer wrote: do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?
If you did, would the legal dept allow you to use it?
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We have no legal dept. I signed no agreement.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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I think you lost the point. This code was mine before this company relationship started. The legal department vacuum I referred to is my company's. I have no legal agreement with them that says everyting I have ever done is now theirs.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote: This code was mine before this company relationship started.
In which case, you should consider simply providing the company with the compiled dll's as well, not the source code... Even if you give it to them for free rather than selling it, you can rest assured that your libraries will indeed remain yours.
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Good point. I'll keep that in mind.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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Joel Palmer wrote: do I have any legal standing over the ownership of this code?
The only people who could answer that would be your company's lawyers.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
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They pay you.
The code is theirs, the knowledge is yours.
You've told them that it was not a good idea to give away the code, the final decision is with your boss'.
If they find out later on that it was a mistake, it will not be yours.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Depends on the country and the contract, but in the UK programming is considered a creative art like writing a book in legal terms.
Unless your contract explicitly states that any works you create while working for the employer belong to them, then the copyright and associated IP remain with the author, ie you. Mind youo, some contracts can have some very general terms that you might have to fight in court 8)
I've been lucky and only once have I had to sign away my rights in nearly 40 years of development...
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I'm also in the UK. My contract said basically, anything I make for the company is their's, including ideas about their systems. Anything that I come up with that isn't related (i.e. a game idea in a mailing company) is mine.
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You're luck, the law here states that EVERYTHING developed using ANY resource from the company is company property. That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241
"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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I'm curious now, if you were to get a virus because your company antivirus sucked, could you sue them if it ruined your personal files?
("personal" being "entirely created by your resources in your time for your stuff")
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I don't think so, you aren't suposed to use company machines to store your files, and they aren't responsible for any non-company machines you plug on their network (most company's actually deny access to the network).
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241
"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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Sentenryu wrote: That includes software you wrote on your laptop outside your work hours if you use eletricity or internet connection from the company.
OK, now I'm curious.
1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)
2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?
3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?
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KP Lee wrote: 1. How could the company prove you used their electricity if you never connected to the net with your computer, even if you developed it on their time, not yours? (That, by the way, is theft almost anywhere.)
2. If they can prove you used their electricity, how can they prove it was used to develop your app?
3. If you sell on the web, how can they prove you are the author and have the chain of custody to prove they own it?
After reading this i searched by the exact text of the law.
The rough translation of that specific law segment is as follow:
Quote: § 2 belong, exclusively, to the employee the rights concerning computer program generated with no relation to the employment contract, and without the use of resources, technological information, trade secrets and business materials, facilities or equipment of the employer, the company or entity with which the employer has the contract to provide services or the like, the service contractor or public agency.
(original text in portuguese, for the case there's another brazilian out there that wants to find this law (it's not easy) http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/Leis/L9609.htm#art16[^])
Looks like it's even more draconian than my teacher told us, the simple fact that you used the company space is enough, and that can be proven with the security cams.
But don't get me wrongh, i love that law, it even protects us from patent trolls!
Quote:
Article 5 The rights on derivations authorized by the rightholder of software, including its economic exploitation, are owned by the person authorized to make them, unless otherwise provided by contract.
[...]
III - the occurrence of similar program to another, pre-existing, when it goes under the functional features of your application, observance of precepts normative and technical, or limitation of alternative forms for its expression;
Basically, no one can claim patents on Lists and things like that, at least not on this country.
I'm brazilian and english (well, human languages in general) aren't my best skill, so, sorry by my english. (if you want we can speak in C# or VB.Net =p)
"Given the chance I'd rather work smart than work hard." - PHS241
"'Sophisticated platform' typically means 'I have no idea how it works.'"
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If I read that right, the employee has exclusive rights to a computer program (s)he creates, if the idea didn't even partially come from the company and company resources weren't used. That's pretty standard in the industry. Even using their electricity would give them the right to claim the program. But first they would have to prove you used their resources to create it. Even with security cameras, I'd think they would have a tough time proving you worked on creating a particular program at work on your own time.
However, considering everything, even here, if you have an idea for a program develop it at home. If you don't have electricity at home work on the laptop until the battery runs low, take it to work, plug it in and work exclusively on company business. You can prove you used it exclusively for work and they would have a tough time proving you were stealing electricity to charge your battery.
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Joel Palmer wrote: I have a set of "helper" libraries that I have developed over the years.
Were those created in the company's time or before you were employed by them? If in the company's time, it belongs to them. I also know of company rules that say anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Depends on your contract, too, really.
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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ChandraRam wrote: anything developed during your employment with them, whether or not during office hours, belongs to the company.
Is that even enforceable?
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Probably not, but I've seen in in employment contracts as well.
The only instant messaging I do involves my middle finger.
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A form like that would not likely hold up in court... just like most non-compete clauses. However, I'm not a lawyer.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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