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The bad thing is, it's not even a joke here at my company. Our initial customers on a new product routinely find more bugs in the first couple of months of operation than our testing group (such as they are) find during the entire time they're banging away on it.
"Think of it as evolution in action." - 'Oath of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
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I hear ya. I remember one QA tester who favorite method was to bang on the keys like a monkey. "See, it's broken. You need to fix it." It started getting worse after he took a few VB classes and started explaining to the C++ coders who to fix the code.
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well, since we are too small a group to have a full size QC department, we are using the following arangement: each programmer in the team is responsible for one or more projects, as a QC guy. plus the client (whcih are ususally inhouse clients) are doing their own UAT (users a cceptance tests).
but I am really am interested in something else: how much of you are CMM Level 2? Level 3? even heard of CMM?
Noam
Noam Ben Haim
Web Developer
Intel
noam.ben.chaim@intel.com
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Hi all,
Noam Ben Haim wrote:
but I am really am interested in something else: how much of you are CMM Level 2? Level 3? even heard of CMM?
Well, we are somewhere between CMM Level 1 and CMM Level 2, heading for more ...
Erik.
The opinion expressed here is solely mine.
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Yes, it is true. You know, whenever QA finds bugs, the first reaction from developers is screaming: "this is not a bug". But when this big man comes to your cubicle and says: "This is a bug!!!", somehow the answer usually is: "OK, I'll fix it". 
![Beer | [beer]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif)
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
But when this big man comes to your cubicle and says: "This is a bug!!!", somehow the answer usually is: "OK, I'll fix it".
Sounds like your shop is severely screwed - why does some QA guy bother developers in their cubicles? 
In here I will not lift a finger unless our project manager will tell me to do something. Users or testers are not allowed anywhere near the developers unless they can help in fixing something and assigned so...
I C++, therefore I am...
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George wrote:
Sounds like your shop is severely screwed - why does some QA guy bother developers in their cubicles?
Usually he doesn't. He justs assigns a bug to me in our bug-tracking system. But sometimes, I think this is not a bug, so I mark it as "not a bug", and then the QA guy needs to approve my decision.
Generally, no product can be delivered until it is bug-free, and the QA decides when a product is "bug-free enough" .
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Generally, no product can be delivered until it is bug-free
Sorry, I have to resist the urge to laugh anytime somebody says that.. 
There are three types of people in this world: those who can count, and those who can't.
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I kid you not ! This is about the only criteria many here use.
Oh no, you can't fool me. There ain't no Sanity Clause!
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Andrew Torrance wrote:
Well it compiles !
The first step to a successful program!
Roger Allen
Sonork 100.10016
I think I need a new quote, I am on the prowl, so look out for a soft cute furry looking animal, which is really a Hippo in disguise. Its probably me.
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Adrew Torrance wrote:
Well it compiles !
Roger Allen wrote:
The first step to a successful program!
I think that is the First And Only Step of M$....;P;P;P
Carlos Antollini.
Sonork ID 100.10529 cantollini
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 Well Compilation comes afterwards, before it comes the big part
"getting to the compilation stage "
Sansky 
John 3:16
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son ( Jesus Christ ) ,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Andrew Torrance wrote:
This is about the only criteria many here use.
I don't even get away with that one in college.. Have to be thoroughly tested !!!
Regards,
Brian Dela
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Anyone's place of work bother with the 9000 type compliance anymore ?
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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We used to have it but thankfully dropped it after about a year. I always thought it was just a lot of useless paperwork.
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Yeah, I feel that its a paper war as well.
The basic principles are sound, but it seems to have been converted into a bureaucrats dream.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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If Dilbert's comments are anything to go by ( and by Dilbert, I of course mean Scott Adams ) then I hope not.
Christian
Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002
During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Yep, ISO-9001 compliant here. Except for the software, of course. Since we're a hardware company, and software is a silly little add-on (it just runs the machinery, you know), we're officially documented (in an ISO-9000 way) that our software development process is not ISO-9000 compliant.
"Think of it as evolution in action." - 'Oath of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
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ISO-900x was such a joke.
Tim Smith
"Programmers are always surrounded by complexity; we can not avoid it... If our basic tool, the language in which we design and code our programs, is also complicated, the language itself becomes part of the problem rather that part of the solution."
Hoare - 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
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Why "was"?
Was it killed?
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We write embedded software for the aerospace industry, and have additional standards above ISO. I just had to go through AS-9100 training the other day 
Nitron
_________________________________________--
message sent on 100% recycled electrons.
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I had some ISO 9000 and TQM training, and I loved the concept of ISO 9000. Everyone else hated it. Oh well. I've never worked for a company that implemented it (at least, I don't think I have). One company did something similar to ISO 9000, but it was a joke--lots of great theory on paper, and no one actually followed the guidelines. And this is a world-wide manufacturer. I guess it's just to look good when doing business with the EU.
Speaking of which, it was pretty clear that when ISO 9000 was "the rage", it was because the EU was using it as a big stick to block out US companies from doing business in Europe. You might argue with that, but every silver lining has a cloud. The company I was working for was getting a lot of grief that they weren't ISO 9000 certified (which is why they were going through the certification process when I left), and they lost several clients to lower quality, higher priced (ha ha ha, get that, will you) European competitors.
Is the EU still forcing US companies to be ISO compliant in order to sell abroad?
Marc
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AFAIK You cant sell ISO products created by non-iso co-producers.
I agree that ISO is not bad, ..is good I would say.
And the paper work it creates is just a matter of good management (computers can be very helpfull here  ). Bad manager will always have problems, even without paper work.
BTW I am working in the company with ISO 9001. I cannot imagine working without ISO. I was working earlier in one, which had no ISO - and this was like: I never knew what to do, who is who, where to search, what I can, etc.
Have a nice day!
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It sounds like your company has figured out how to use ISO productively, so it's an asset to your operations, not a hinderance. Cool!
Marc
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