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I wasn't talking about a degree.
For most of the MS certs a D is not a pass you need 70%+. I do still maintain that it does force you to investigate topics that you otherwise would not have looked at. You may not be an expert at the end but at least you are aware that they exist.
I am agreeing with you as far as it isn't necessary to get a degree, and that real life experience is second to none
(I just realised I originally replied on the wrong message, I meant to reply to MisterLister, think this may have added some confusion...  )
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smdo1982 wrote: I just realised I originally replied on the wrong message, I meant to reply to MisterLister, think this may have added some confusion...
Oh well, it all works out in the end. 
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While it MAY be said that universities and the rest teach restrictive thinking, I have discovered from my interaction with software developers that the years of training within the walls of a classroom goes a long way in shaping how we eventually approach real life problems. After all, software if just a tool with which we solve problems. It is a means to an end and not the end in itself.
How much work would be accomplished in developing a solution for a specialized field without a thorough understanding of the field in itself?
While I write software every day, I am also studying for a PhD in Electronic and Electrical Engineering. I see the direct impact of my academics within my daily work.
Please don't mention Bill Gates because Microsoft has a lot of PhD (if not Profs) working in their development teams.
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It's not the degree, it's the person behind it that was my point. A piece of paper is just that. Someone who wants to study hardcore computer science can do that just as easily outside of college.
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I wouldn't worry about it - a degree is only a means to an end (learning and getting a job) and offers no guarantees as to proficiency. What really matters is experience.
As a case in point, my degree (Electronic & Electrical Engineering, specialising in RF Electronics and DSP) is almost completely irrelevant to my career. Furthermore, the software related content on my course was at nowhere near as advanced a level as I'd already reached by myself, and I learnt very little. They certainly taught nothing about the areas I specialise in now (software quality and user interface design).
My partner Beth didn't do a degree at all. It hasn't stopped her becoming something of a guru on low level COM or database design, either. ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
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Here's some educational irony...
My Bachelor of Science project in college (to get the BSEE) was to program a TI DSP to detect certain heart rhythym patterns - tachycardia, fibrillation, etc. This was back in 1991-1992.
My current employer has an ongoing 'emergency care training program' in which some of us get CPR training, basic emergency skills training. etc. Since I had some 'biology training' I was selected as one of the people to be in this program.
Recently we were trained to use devices called Automatic Electronic Defibrillators - AED.
These devices can be used on people suffering from a heart attack to keep the heart going properly under certain kinds of attack.
So here is the irony: I am in training to use a device about 13 years after writing the software that would be similar to what is inside one. Even more ironic, is that I intiially interviewed to work for one of the companies that develops the AED, but that was for their lithotripter.
What do I do now? I fix multi-threading issues in our software that are caused by the newer dual-core systems, and I barely use my training in Biochemistry at all here at work 
Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.
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This is neither diploma, bachelor, master or whatever. It is more along the lines of an apprenticeship. Normally it takes between 3 to 3 and a half years to complete, with an examination at the end. I completed mine in two years (18 months collage/theoretical training, plus 6 months practical training in a company, which after completion took me on) after having worked as a "Radio-Fernsehtechniker" (technician) for 8 years. I´ve been working as a software developer (development / programming / technical documentation and training) for 5 years now, and have been looking for a job in Germany for a couple of months now(To broaden my horizon(s) ). As a native English speaker, with fluent German (both written and spoken) my profile fits a hell of a lot of jobs, however as soon as I mention that I have no degree, they no longer seem to be interested. Do not get me wrong, but here in Germany, the employers are more interested in what you are theoretically capable of (i.e. degree) than what you have actually archived and are capable of(proven work experience, completed projects etc.). Very depressing! How is this in comparison to other countries?
mfg
regards
-- modified at 4:17 Tuesday 7th November, 2006
Who the f*** is General Failure, and why is he reading my harddisk?
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Well anywhere you go, for a professional job you do need a degree, otherwise the changes to obtain a god job is considerably low.
Consider your degree as a cake, and the experiences and certificaion are only the cream on the cake.
You have got the cream but since no cake, its useless.
Rahim Rattani
Software Engineer,
Matrix Systems (Pvt) Ltd.,
Karachi - Pakistan
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This comment puzzles / perplexes me.
"Consider your degree as a cake experiences and certification are Only the cream on the cake"
I would rather say that the Degree is the cream, (which is mostly for decoration anyway, may taste nice, but is gone in the lick of a tounge) and the experiences are the cake (body and substance), i.e. the real nutritional value of the cake!
Carrying on using your method of explanation, we could all live happily ever after stuffing ourselves with chocolate eclairs (massive cream filling, next to no hunger stilling value) and never have to worry about our health regarding vitamins minerals etc.
Just food for thought !!!
mfg
regards
Who the f*** is General Failure, and why is he reading my harddisk?
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Hi,
I'm from Germany. I'm not sure about the meaning of diploma in this context.
In Germany Master and Diploma are almost the same. More precisions: All course at Universities will be changed from the diploma degree to the master degree in the near future.
But does a diploma have the same meaning in America, too?
Greetings from Germany
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diploma is completion of High School
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Thats not correct,
in germany you will get a diploma only after successfull completion of a 4 or 5 year study on an university or technical higher school. Before this you have to finish the gynmasium ( after 12 or 13 years in a school ). Then you are 19 or 20 years old.
I think a gymnasium compares more to an american college.
German diploma == Master, that seems to be right.
Please refer the wikipedia for more details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29
Olaf Herrmann
-- modified at 16:44 Monday 6th November, 2006
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"But does a diploma have the same meaning in America, too?"
Being an American, I took 'Diploma' in this context to mean "General Equivalency Diploma" (GED for short).
In the US, education is generally free, as in Germany. But unlike in Germany we aspire (or, rather, pretend to aspire) to give all our students "the best" education. We pretend, for as long as possible in each student's academic career, that all students are really interested in learning more than the bare basics and that each is destined for university.
At the same time, our "educationists" tend to actually teach (I use the word advisedly) the vast majority of students in their charge by the lowest common denominator. Heaven forefend that Little Johnny's delicate self-esteem should be bruised by actually having to strive to accomplish (which would mean the risk of failure to accomplish exists) anything which might justify his possession of that carefully nurtured self-esteem.
Consequently, US high schools are full of students who don't want to be there and/or don't see that they're getting anything of value from their education. It's a fact of human nature that we tend not to value as highly those things which are "free" as compared to those things which we earn.
At the same time, once you're 16, you can legally emancipate yourself from the education bureaucracy. And, a very high percentage of our students do just that.
A few years later, they often realize that high school wasn't quite as worthless as they'd thought at the time. Perhaps they finally realize that education isn't something which happens *to* you, but rather is an on-going process that you do to yourself. Or, perhaps mere economics is the motivation -- generally, lack of a high school diploma limits one's employment options to the lower paying and/or more physically demanding jobs.
So, most (if not all) States have the GED program. The now older, and one hopes wiser, former students take a test. Success at the test earns them the legal, if not quite socal, equal of the high school diploma they could have had earlier.
-- modified at 18:56 Monday 6th November, 2006
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I am a Chinese. In China, it maybe the meaning 'GED' as Ilíon said.
That is to say, someone will get 'Diploma' after he finished courses as which is opened in university.
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I'm from Quebec,Canada and here we have the option to specialize in college. We don't go straight to University after High School.
I did my 3 years of computer programming in there and been working since.
What option do I check? "Other" ???
Dewm Solo - Managed C++ Developer
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bachelor probably...
V.
Stop smoking so you can: enjoy longer the money you save.
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Diploma? You have more than High School, but not enough for a bachelors degree - Is that right? In some places 3 years additional is enough for a degree, so perhaps that may be a better option.
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I finished school and got a job straight away. The only problem I have come across for not having a degree is getting work permits abroad.
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I have a diploma, on the down side, I'm from South Africa so abroad that means less than toilet paper. 
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I did freelance web design for about a year after Matric, then got a job with Telkom's ISP in Midrand (awesome salary for a 19-yo :->). About 3 months later my family dragged me over to Australia  .. but that turned out for the better, didn't have much trouble getting work without a degree there - portfolio & experience was proof enough.
I got some telephony training in Kuala Lumpur. And this year I passed one of the MCAD exams for the hell of it.
You're right, not having a degree does give you more hurdles at some point - but offset that against the 4 years lost time & missed earnings - whether it was worth it (for me) in the long run, time will tell.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza ~ Web SQL Utility - asp.net app to query Access, SQL server, MySQL. Stores history, favourites.
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Currently working for small software development company in Midrand, give me half a chance and I'm outa here
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Here, take this 'half a chance'.;P
We made the buttons on the screen look so good you'll want to lick them. Steve Jobs
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You really shouldn't have
He who laughs last is a bit on the slow side
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Good luck. I remember the highway to joburg was a nightmare during peak hour. But it was my first salary-job, so I was pretty stoked at the time. Moving country is always a setback, but in the long run it's probably worth it. (But I'm not originally from RSA).
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza ~ Web SQL Utility - asp.net app to query Access, SQL server, MySQL. Stores history, favourites.
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