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Arch4ngel wrote: Man... people are are actually developping software without having any education.
Who says you must have an education to develop software? Last time I checked, they were mutually exclusive.
"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." - Mark Twain
"There is no death, only a change of worlds." - Native American Proverb
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Don't waste money on a loan - get everything you need from sites like codeproject.com and books.
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Hello,
How would you pay for books when you don't have money? Get a job so you can buy all the stuff you need to find only that you don't have the time to read the books since your job requires too much time... What if your parents refuse or don't have the resources too pay your education?
I'm almost finished with my education and I have a loan. I'm happy that I didn't get a job, since I've had a lot of time to read books on application architecture / programming techniques / etc.. Because of this, I have a great advantage on most other students who wasted their time working..
Behind every great black man...
... is the police. - Conspiracy brother
Blog[^]
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First i commend anyone that takes the time and effort to complete a university or college degree. I know first hand the challenges that are faced.
If you are happy with your education and the choices you've made then that should be all that matters to you. However, as an employer, given the choice between a University graduate and an individual that has taken the initiative to learn and improve their skill, knowledge and experience through self-improvment; Well, the latter would hold much more weight. I know its not always so clear-cut as that, but anyone can pickup a book and read about architecture and programing techniques, not everyone can do it.
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Sean Rock wrote: but anyone can pickup a book and read about architecture and programing techniques, not everyone can do it.
True, but the same goes for college and universities. At leas here in Holland. I'm ashamed of the fact that I graduate from some college where the majority of the graduates don't even know why structurally testing software is a good thing... Anyone here can follow the classes and take exams, but only few people understand the concept and know how to apply it to a given situation.
In the end it will all work out since the people who truely understand what they are doing will excel in their work.
Behind every great black man...
... is the police. - Conspiracy brother
Blog[^]
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Bob Stanneveld wrote: I have a great advantage on most other students who wasted their time working..
It's not a waste of time if it's a programming job. 
Nothing beats "real" experience.
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Joshua Quick wrote: It's not a waste of time if it's a programming job.
That completely depends on the organization and the level of the other programmers on the job. I know no student who is employed by a professional software development company. The majority of students are employed by one man development shops. They get pushed around by their boss and the word "quality" doens't appear in anyones dictionary. So far for "real experiance".
I agree with you that nothing beats real experiance. Real experiance to me is working in a professional environment where all aspects of software development are taken into account.
What means most to me is the experiance where you apply some methodology or concept that one has read to a real-world project instead of starting from scratch. I'm now at the stage where I apply the concepts, methodologies and other theories I've read about in the past years.
Behind every great black man...
... is the police. - Conspiracy brother
Blog[^]
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Bob Stanneveld wrote: That completely depends on the organization and the level of the other programmers on the job.
Agreed. However, I must also state that work experience (the time, not the quality of the experience) looks great on a resume. After all, an employer can't really determine how good of a developer you are from a single piece of paper. But at least 1 year of development experience tells the employer that you are at least competent. That helps you get past the resume filtering process and moves you ahead to the job interview.
I'm saying this because I regularly hire CS/CompE interns from a local university. Those with prior development experience usually require less training and hand holding. That's a fact I can't ignore.
Bob Stanneveld wrote: They get pushed around by their boss and the word "quality" doens't appear in anyones dictionary.
Ah yes. This is why Dilbert is so funny, because it's true.
Bob Stanneveld wrote: I'm now at the stage where I apply the concepts, methodologies and other theories I've read about in the past years.
That's great! It sounds like you have a lot of drive. So keep it up.
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Unversity is a way to get yourself in the door. Internship is also an obvious plus. It's a way to say, "I am dedicated and I will work hard" I have at least shown I can complete a degree. It's easier to get in the door with a degree than without one, especially if you have no experience in the job you are going for. So you get entry level.
However, once you are out of the Unversity it doesn't mean anything. It's all about job experience. So, if you have or haven't gone to Unversity doesn't matter since its the job experience that will get you the interview. Then once you get the interview, it's up to you to show them that you can do the job in the interview.
I know a few people who haven't gone to Unversity and have worked with me. They got the interview from having job experience though. If they didn't have job experience they wouldn't get an interview without a degree. You really can't write on your resume "I read a few books, give me a job".
I also think that times have changed; the people who I know who have not had any Unversity are a bit older and got in the door in the 80s and 90s when the industry was still fairly new and anyone who could spell "computer" was given a job. Now a days it's a bit harder and the market is flooded with people who don't know what they're doing. To get an interview now a days without any job experience or any Unversity would be a bit harder and probably near impossible unless perhaps you know someone or are somehow special because it's a competition. You're competing against other professionals with job experience and/or education. Remember that no one knows you to give you an interview, all they have is this piece of paper to help decide to even give you an interview or not.
Also, as someone else mentioned it's one thing to say "I've read a book" and another thing to "be able to actually do the job". Someone who has not gone to University and has no job experience would not really be able to prove that "they can do the job" since they have not worked anywhere. Perhaps you could get them to provide a sample of their work but you never know; they could just download something and give it to you!
8bc7c0ec02c0e404c0cc0680f7018827ebee
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Educational assistance, combined with the fact that I went to state schools and only went for 3 years (2.75 worth of classes, really) allowed by to have my loans paid off rather quickly (I think within 2-3 years after I left).
I think the total loan amount was less than $10,000 (USD)...
Peace!
-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
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Same here, actually I went to 2 schools and went for 6 years and had less than 10k of loans. It's all paid off now after 5 years.
8bc7c0ec02c0e404c0cc0680f7018827ebee
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My grand total of student loans is around 40,000 dollars. It is a lot of money to owe but I think my college did well in teaching me how to program. I am not one to do well teaching myself things and college gave me the focus required to learn. To me the price was well worth it. As for paying it off, if I make minimum payment it will take me 25 years but my interest rate is only 2.7%. It is much more worthwhile paying off my house and my car before I pay off my school loans.
Brett A. Whittington
Application Developer
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Just a question (off topic): have you a list of the courses you attended at the college?
I'm curious and ingorant on this topic.
And what's the difference between college and university? 
___________________________________
Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us.
My Blog [ITA]
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In the US, at least where I live, there is no difference between college and university. Normally, universities tend to be much much larger than colleges but sometimes that is not the case.
My degree is focused in business programming so I will only list the courses related to programming and computers.
Introduction to Programming - Basically simple operations and comparisons only.
Object Oriented Programming I
Object Oriented Programming II - This class went into data structures and more theoretical topics than Object Oriented Programming I
Systems Analysis
Object Oriented Analysis
Database I - Introduction to SQL
Database II - More advanced SQL and PL/SQL
Database Management
ASP.NET - A class dedicated to technology behind it.
C#.NET
COBOL - A course entirely dedicated COBOL.
3 networking classes ranging from beginner to advanced.
Plus a ton of general education courses that are useful for business writing, communications, etc.
Brett A. Whittington
Application Developer
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Dario Solera wrote: And what's the difference between college and university?
Size and scope. Most universities are actually a collection of colleges/schools/departments. My last degree was from the University of Illinois / The College of Engineering / Theoretical and Applied Mechanics Department.
My daughter goes to Stephen F. Austin State University. She in in the College of xxx (She just changed major, so not sure right now )
SFASU[^]
"Every new day begins with possibilities. It's up to us to fill it with things that move us toward progress and peace.” (Ronald Reagan)
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 Loans diverts the focus from study to how to acquire money and be wealthy, Instead of instilling the value of study to uplift the society, it infilterates the feeling of value for money to suck out of every possibility and opportunity available.
It steals the essence and objective !!!
deque
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Hehe, how roght you are!
deque wrote: Instead of instilling the value of study to uplift the society
There are many reasons to study.
- want to uplift yourself and/or the society
- want to know as much as possible
- plan to work in science/development and change the world instead of waiting for changes
- ...
But today the most frequent reason is "more money, right from the first working day".
Knowledge itself seems to loose value, it becomes a tool for making money.
_________________________________
Please inform me about my English mistakes, as I'm still trying to learn your language!
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"Most of us have had one, have one, or are about to get one."
Apparently that's an untrue assumption. Although the sample size is small, it seems at first glance that programmers are less likely to borrow money for school than doctors or lawyers, and far more likely to pay the loans back.
"...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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I can think of nothing worse than having to pay off a student loan for 5 or 10 years after you finish studying.
Talk about demotivating. 
Cheers,
Simon
> blog:: brokenkeyboards
> what I think of the OPTIONAL keyword in VB.NET? :: here
> CV :: PDF
> skype :: SimonMStewart
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SimonS wrote: I can think of nothing worse than having to pay off a student loan for 5 or 10 years after you finish studying.
How about 30 years for a house? 
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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I can vouch for that...!
Peace!
-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
DeleteFXPFiles & CheckFavorites (Please rate this post!)
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SimonS wrote: I can think of nothing worse
really ? i can think of a hundred things that are far worse.
it was pretty much no big deal at all for me. within a few years after graduation, i was making enough to pay them off early. that's one nice thing about programming jobs - they pay well.
Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Roger Wright wrote: Although the sample size is small, it seems at first glance that programmers are less likely to borrow money for school than doctors or lawyers
Sure, you can learn to program at home, even as a child, as I guess a lot of the people who visit CP have done. Would you hire a doctor or lawyer who "taught them selves how to operate/litigate"? We can not make a fair comparison of the professions.
Roger Wright wrote: and far more likely to pay the loans back
That is completely unacceptable. I wish we could know which ones were in default, I know I would not go to that person for treatment or advice. It is part of the total package, you take a loan with a commitment to repay, and then you do not repay. That is a character issue with me.
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Had three jobs at the same time for a while. A good night's sleep meant 5 whopping hours. Needless to say, I slept most of my weekends.
For my master's degree, I worked as a university teacher. Got 100% pay, for 50% teaching and 50% research. I found that to be a sweet deal, eventhough the deal meant more like 60% + 70% rather than 50% + 50%.
I'm happy I had to work my butt off; I think I developed character, and I know I can pull through shitloads of work.
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