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Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote: propergander
As opposed to propergoose? After all, what's proper for the gander is proper for the goose. (I think you were thinking of propaganda.  )
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Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote: was wrong then and still is.
Do you know how and who used to break up unions and union protests?
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I think Marconi took a page out of Edison's book too...
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Big companies don't take risks, so if you want to be a part of that then here's what you do:
Find a start-up or young business to join. They don't have a choice but to take some risks.
The benefit of joining a start up is that they are always working on something new, they are taking risks, and it means you can aggressively advance.
The down side is that start ups fail, and most don't have a lot of working capital for a while, so you will have to trade job growth/opportunity for pay and benefits. This is why a lot of people don't bother with start ups, its not just the businesses looking at the bottom line, employees worry about their bottom line too.
Take it from somebody running a start up, risks are out there, but if you want a business that takes risks, you will have to take a risk with it.
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Ron Beyer wrote: Big companies don't take risks,
Of course they do. Matter of fact there are very large investment firms that do only that - venture capitalists.
Larger companies just take risks that will not cripple their bottom line. Very small companies don't do that. Sometimes because they don't have a bottom line. And if they do then they often fail (statistically.)
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I mean companies that we are in the business of, not a lot of investment bankers hang out on CP 
And to me, a risk is something that can cost you everything, otherwise they are closer to "experiments".
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Ron Beyer wrote: I mean companies that we are in the business of, not a lot of investment bankers hang out on CP
I can't speak for all CPers but I do get paid most of the companies I have worked for for quite some time, didn't have products when I joined them and were not making a profit.
So the latter and the former together means that someone has been taking a "risk".
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I must be in the wrong business, I don't know how a company can operate in the red without any products and continue for more than the amount of time it takes the banks to file enough paperwork to shut it down.
I worked for a company that was operating in the red, there were months (in a row) we didn't get paid. One day the VP came in and told me not to leave any personal property at work that night, the next day the company assets were going to be seized. Luckily another company came in and bought the company for the outstanding debt the next day and a few months later we all got paid.
The company you are speaking of was either just starting out, reorganizing, or it had something that allowed it to continue operating or put enough in the coffers to coast for a while. Payroll can't be taken out of an empty bank account.
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Ron Beyer wrote: for more than the amount of time it takes the banks to file enough paperwork to shut it down.
Venture capital.
Ron Beyer wrote: <layer>The company you are speaking of was either just starting out, reorganizing, or it had something that allowed it to continue
The companies, plural, that I was discussing had people who were taking a risk by providing capital that allowed the companies to continue. In one case at least 7 years.
In several cases it was specific venture capitalists. But in other cases it was other companies who main business had nothing to do with investing in other companies but who wished to provide capital to other companies because, presumably, they were willing to risk based on future return.
It is "risk" that was being discussed.
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J Julian wrote: We have no one that would be willing to try to land on the moon today.
Do you have a place for me? I'm definitely want to do that!
But really - I know some companies and even more persons that are Edison kind...
The problem is that we do have a global net to exchange info, but not enough global companies...
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is. (V)
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Why not be that risk-taking company yourself?
(I did it, crashed and burned, but learned...and I think I am better for so doing)
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I know my limitations. I'm not the strategic type of person. I'm a tactician. I'm not much on being able to come up with the ideas, but I can make things happen.
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When a company reaches a certain size, it is taken over by accountants: and they know only the cost of everything, and know not the value of anything. Big companies can - and do, sometimes - take risks (even huge risks) but it needs a person of foresight and ambition at the helm to see the potential rather than the outlay.
Sadly, there aren't many of those in the top echelons because the accountants weed them out...
One of the reasons I prefer small companies - risks are the reason they exist at all!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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+1 on the bean-counters bit, wouldn't blame it solely on accountants, but they do deserve special mention.
I've seen companies transition from the small/flexible to the bigger/hidebound and it's never pretty.
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How about Google?[^]
It's had multiple project failures, but can easily absorb them and occasionally comes up trumps with something fantastic.
Problem is for you've got to be able to continue despite the failures. I reckon small companies have the flexibility to do this for a small number of projects, and big companies can abosrb the costs, I think the problem lies in the middle?
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The problem is that that you are using the benefit of hindsight and are doing selective analysis. Most companies "shooting for the moon" and being "willing to fail numerous times" look like a bunch of crackpots to contemporaries. Working for these companies is typically rather brutal since they expect you to carry the risk without much of an upside--are you willing to go without pay for months? Are you willing to work 80 hour weeks with no weekends or vacations? Are you willing to work with outdated hardware and software?
Do you want to take the risks or do you want someone else to take the risks while you collect a salary and nice benefits?
(BTW, I've done all of that. It was great fun, but I had to sell my house, almost declared bankruptcy and am still paying the price vis-a-vis retirement.)
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J Julian wrote: And I realized that the reason there is no companies like this anymore, is that they only worry about the bottom line.
Sure there are, but they don't make themselves known because they're usually startups where folks work out of their garage (or their college dorm room) and they're hard to find unless you know the right people. For example, I happen to be working with a few people that are doing some really interesting things, potentially completely revolutionary -- here's one example,[^], sorry, it's "invite only."
Another thing is, a lot of great ideas don't need to start with a technology solution -- the technology comes later. I'm talking about social structure changes, like local economies, un-monetized transactions, information organization / management, and so forth. For example, look at what these folks[^] are doing -- technology obviously helps but isn't the core impetus. And in my opinion, that's where the most interesting and revolutionary ideas are.
Anyways, I think you're view is inaccurate.
Marc
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An interesting site Marc, but there's nothing in there, technically, that's revolutionary: that kind of simulated 3d linking to represent semantic relations/correlations has been around, conceptually, a very long time, and, in terms of a full-fledged incarnation, available to mere mortals with home computers, since 1997 when Plumb Design brought out the "Visual Thesaurus" which is still going strong as ThinkMap.
Marc Tinkler, the creator, and ThinkMap, won the World Technology Award for Education in 2010: [^].
In the early 1990's, I and a colleague from Adobe visited a developer in Berkely who was prototyping a virtually identical object-graph program for representing complex hierarchies with degrees of semantic relatedness on a PC: it was dog-slow, but he was actually using 3d graphics.
However, MetaMaps may indeed be using the concepts in "revolutionary" ways, socially, or otherwise, for all I know. It will be interesting to see what they (and you) come up with.
I wish them, and you, best of luck !
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.”
“How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice.
“You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.” Lewis Carroll
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BillWoodruff wrote: Marc Tinkler, the creator, and ThinkMap,
Wow, I hadn't come across that before. Too bad the SDK is $5,000!
But your points are well taken. I find it interesting (puzzling, actually) that these technologies haven't taken off more. Reading some of the research stuff that's been going on (the Metamaps guys have connections to a lot of stuff, and there's research projects being funded apparently by Ford and even EU governments) it's weird to me that people are seeing this stuff as "new", when, as you said, it's been around for 20 years.
Marc
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J Julian wrote: And I realized that the reason there is no companies like this anymore, is that they only worry about the bottom line
Pretty sure Edison was all about the bucks.
And companies that don't "worry" about the bottom line don't have a bottom line. Which means you don't get paid. Plenty of opportunities for that online - join an open source project or three.
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I can't agree with the broad generality that big companies don't take risks.
Yes, it's true in the hardware and software world that legacy support is a ball-and-chain around development; I do not believe from that you can assume that risks are not taken.
In fact, large companies spend substantial amounts on R&D, and groups in large companies, like ATG at Microsoft, Google Labs, Apple Labs, are busy prototyping hardware and software whose "payout," if any, may be years off.
The catch for mere-mortal developers is that to get a job as a developer in those groups at large companies you have to be a very remarkable programmer, and person ... as in "world class."
And, there are serendipitous ways one can get in a position of being on the "cutting edge:" when the start-up I worked at in the late 1980's, Emerald City Software, in which I held the (ridiculous) title of "Director of PostScript Development" (perhaps the equivalent of being a Bolivian ... Bolivia is land-locked ... Admiral) was acquired by Adobe, John Warnock, deliberately, I believe, used us newcomers as "guerrillas" to create the prototype of what became Acrobat, having been very frustrated with trying to get his existing technology groups to deliver his vision.
Now that "skunk works" project, which I nick-named, "Carousel," was fun and games galore, which included vicious assaults by other groups in the company, some of whom actually accused the four of us of trying to "destroy Adobe"  High-risk, high-stress, insane deadlines, and no immediate glory. But, the moment we had a demo going where a NeXT machine, a Mac, and a PC, were all displaying the same richly-formatted document almost identically ... that moment was worth a lot.
Are you willing to take the risk to make yourself a "great programmer" ? They don't call it the "bleeding edge" for nothing.
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.”
“How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice.
“You must be," said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.” Lewis Carroll
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There must be venture capitalists and romantic people founding companies like Ubuntu, but the rest are like you describe for a very good reason. They are controlled by managers who easily migrate from one company to another and thus think only about the bottom line. Even worse, they think only about the tomorrow bottom line at best.
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"trying to find a company to work for that was willing to take risks "
Now that seems to me like a bit of introspection is in order. The statement to me reads something like this "I am disappointed that there are no companies out there willing to go out on a limb whilst still offering me a risk free salary"
To me there seems to be something fundamentally wrong with that statement, I just can't place my finger on it ....
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
~ Albert Einstein
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Yes, you're wrong. I work for one. But privacy issues prevent me from naming it publicly.
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