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But then how are we supposed to download Firefox or Chrome?

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt

If it didn't break Chrome, who gives a sh*t? Big Grin | :-D

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Dave Kreskowiak

How does he download Chrome if he doesn't have a working browser? Confused | :confused:

Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!

Download it BEFORE you apply the patch. Laugh | :laugh:

A guide to posting questions on CodeProject

Click this: Asking questions is a skill.
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Dave Kreskowiak

I was thinking about a prior Lounge posting about learning web development.

I know next to nothing about web development, except moderate experience with WEB API development using MVC, WCF, and some SignalR.

It sees to me that to be truly proficient in Web Development using a Microsoft stack, one would have to learn and remain proficient in:

ASP.Net MVC
JavaScript
Angular.js
HTML5
CSS

and there's a boatload of things to learn hat are just words to me:
Backbone.js, Ember.js, jQuery, Coffeescript, Handlebar, react.js, node.js, express, wordpress, Drupal, Magento

and god knows what else.

Am I making this more difficult than it is, or is it really this much work?

Thanks

If it's not broken, fix it until it is

In theory, Angular or jQuery don't count as Microsoft stack. You can use MVC with the built in Ajax helpers and Razor. But of late, a lot of people are mixing MVC with Angular (mini-SPA approach).

Regards,
Nish

Website: www.voidnish.com
Blog: voidnish.wordpress.com

Also keep in mind there are a multitude of browsers which may not consistently render the same page. Other points to consider are mobile devices and responsive pages.
At some point, you will feel pain.
______________________________________________________________________

Ah don't lean on me man, cause you can't afford the ticket

You're making it more complicated than it is.
I once did the same, so I wrote a series of blogs about it: Web development #1: Internet and the World Wide Web[^]
Maybe it'll help you Big Grin | :-D

Basically you need to know a bit about HTTP, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and a back-end language such as C#, Java, or PHP.
Everything you mentioned comes down to any of those languages.
Pick a few (or one) and be done with it.
The only Microsoft thing you mentioned is ASP.NET MVC by the way, it's your C# back-end framework.

Angular.js, Backbone.js, React.js, and Ember.js are just front-end JavaScript frameworks (running in the browser). They make the work there a little bit easier by pushing you in a certain coding style and direction (they provide HTML binding, templating, and MV* coding style). In no way are you obligated to use them and you usually use just one of them.

jQuery is a JavaScript library for the front-end that makes working with the HTML document object model (DOM) a lot easier and also solves lots of browser incompatibilities. It's probably the most used library around. If you're using one of the earlier mentioned frameworks you probably don't need jQuery as these frameworks have their own methods you can use.

Node.js is just more JavaScript, but now in the back-end (and so replaces your C#, Java, or PHP).
Express is a framework often used with Node.js. Node.js is fairly light-weight and keeps a lot of work to the user, Express has implemented a lot of it for you (such as parsing, routing, etc.).

CoffeeScript is a language that compiles to JavaScript (so you don't have to write actual JavaScript).

Handlebars is a templating engine that helps you to build up HTML. It's often used with Node.js and Express.

Wordpress, Drupal, and Magento are something else. They are Content Management Systems that run on the web. Rent some web space and you can probably install any of them (and more). They're used for creating blogs and pages. They can be customized using, you've guessed it, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and PHP.

Out of all those I know how to use just a few plus a few you haven't mentioned Big Grin | :-D

If you're interested in Node.js, Express, and Angular.js I've also written a series of blogs about those: MEAN web development #1: MEAN, the what and why[^]

Good luck on learning web development!
It's not really as hard as it may seem to you now, but there's a learning curve nonetheless Smile | :)

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

Thank you. Very imformitive explanation

If it's not broken, fix it until it is

No problem Smile | :)

Don't focus too much on all the frameworks and libraries.
My advice is to start easy with HTML, then add some CSS, then some JavaScript. You should be able to create that using nothing but Notepad(++) and a browser.
After that try adding some back-end.

Only after you've got "vanilla" web development add some libraries and frameworks to your stack Smile | :)

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

That helped, putting all the bits in place makes a big difference. However it still comes down to having to learn at least 3 technologies/frameworks and probably 5 or 6. Ah Silverlight I do miss you!

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH

Mycroft Holmes wrote:
it still comes down to having to learn at least 3 technologies/frameworks

Yeah, but having a little knowledge can get you pretty far with all the frameworks around.
With a little CSS knowledge you can still use Bootstrap which does the hard parts.
With a little HTML/CSS/JavaScript knowledge you can still use jQuery UI, which gives you pretty advanced controls.
Knowing them all, yes.
Mastering them all? Nope Smile | :)

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

Very good explanation and all your points above are very good.Totally agree with everything.

That's very good explanation for a beginner. Very well. Bookmarked in case someone comes asking, I can redirect them here... Smile | :)

Thanks,
Milind

Thanks!

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

You could have mentioned TypeScript[^] as well, basically Javascript with optional type safety. The lack of type safety is the biggest drawback of Javascript as far as I'm concerned

Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

I also should've mentioned Knockout.js, Bootstrap, jQuery UI, Jade, Sockets.io etc. Smile | :)

I think the lack of type safety is one of the strengths and weaknesses of JavaScript.
Personally I haven't used TypeScript, but it's been on my things to try list for a while now.

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

Maybe write this up as an article or tip/trick while going just a wee bit more in depth and breadth? I'm currently also preparing my jump dive into web dev and have been looking for a good high altitude overview that lifts the confusion about the multitude of technologies and terms, without that marketing gibberish on some websites - and your message here is the best in that regard that I've come across so far!

PS: maybe a reference would be the most fitting category for publication

If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. — Lyall Watson

modified 11-Mar-16 6:21am.

Sascha Lefèvre wrote:
your message here is the best in that regard that I've come across so far!

Thanks!

I actually wrote that down in a few minutes from the top of my head.
Funny as I was in the OP's shoes just over a year ago Smile | :)

I've written something like it in my blogs, especially the first[^] and eighth[^] on web dev.
The first mentions this exact problem, where to start? And that you'll need HTTP, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and a back-end language. The eighth explores some additional libraries and frameworks Smile | :)

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

Thank you, I'll take a look at it! Smile | :)

If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. — Lyall Watson

You said: "Basically you need to know a bit about HTTP, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and a back-end language such as C#, Java, or PHP."

That's a lot to learn and master.

I said you need to know a BIT about them, not MASTER them Wink | ;)

You don't need to master anything (although it's a pro).
With just basic HTML, CSS, and JavaScript knowledge you can build pretty awesome websites, all those libraries make sure of that.
Some basic skills allow you to use Bootstrap, jQuery (UI), and that will do a lot for you already Smile | :)

And let's be honest, how many of us are true masters of HTML and CSS? That's for designers, not programmers! Wink | ;)

Visit my blog at Sander's bits - Writing the code you need.
Or read my articles at my CodeProject profile.

Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
— Edsger W. Dijkstra

Regards,
Sander

I am now retired and got into web development for the Bowls Club I belong to. I created a web site using just ASP.NET, MVC, HTML and CSS using C# as the programming language. It was pretty successful.

I am now thinking of re-writing it to add more functionality and it won't be much different in what I use. I will use the new ASP Core 5, MVC, HTML and CSS using VB when it is supported (C# in the meantime}. ASP Core contains Bootstrap which does a lot of the work for you when creating a nice looking UI. I have decided to have a good look at Metro-UI instead. There are a few more fancy things in that system but the docs are a bit light in getting it installed. I will also use (JQuery)JavaScript if I have to. My database is an existing SQL Server database hosted by the Web Hosting site. I will use Entity Framework to provide the contact with the DB.

I find they give me all the tools I need to create whatever I is required. I don't have much time to start learning any more fancy tools or I won't get the job finished.

Thank you.. Good info

If it's not broken, fix it until it is

Word!

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