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Exactly... It's good to know that I'm not the only one in the world that sees some common sense in all this.
It is sad that companies these days are too worried about trying "reduce the risk" because the perception is that you must be good if you have a piece of paper.
I don't understand why they don't give you a small coding project to complete as part of the selection process. Really easy way to weed out the bad eggs isn't it...
Edward Steward
edwardsteward@optusnet.com.au
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I made my german equivalent to a masters-degree in molecular biology.
I then switched to making software in a company producing hardware used in chemistry and biology.
My masters degree has about nothing to do with my computer knowledge: All I learned in university was using pub-med and blast.
-- fixed embarrassing typos at 3:42 Monday 13th November, 2006
"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising: and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation."
-- Caius Petronius, Roman Consul, 66 A.D.
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I think this is a very good direction for people to go. A person who understand both the business domain and the soft. dev. domain is a very valuable asset to a company.
Scott H.
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I agree 100%. Domain/business knowledge is a very important aspect of software development. I'm not very impressed when I see software developers jump form one sector to another. Lots of precious domain knowledge was lost, it would take years to get the same experience in another industry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never mistake knowledge for wisdom. One helps you make a living, the other helps you make a life.
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I have a vocational/technical certificate of ability, doesn't count as a degree, but more than a high school education. Unfortunately it is in business accounting/programming (writing ledgers, payroll systems, etc). Everything I do right now, is self-taught, but I still have the certificate so that is still my highest level of education.
_________________________
Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau.
Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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First I would recommend taking the Activity Vector Analysis (AVA) to see which occupation best fits your personality type. Do some research on the AVA -- I highly encourage it from personal experience.
Then, I would pursue a major that will enable you to succeed in that occupation.
If your AVA profile shows strong personality traits in the areas of analysis and problem solving then I would make the following recommendations if you are interested in software engineering and software development:
Choose any one of the following undergraduate majors: Physics, Electrical Engineering, or Applied Mathematics. However, take as many computer sciences courses as possible, but ensure they are what we call "terminal" courses, i.e. courses where you have to sit at a terminal, and learn a language, develop code, do software projects by yourself, etc. Stay away from the "soft" computer science courses that are more into the "process" and place less emphasis on learning how to code and build things.
You will learn the softer side of the profession  on the job, and that stuff changes rapidly.
If you are still on board with what I am advising ... here are some more tips.
If you are the engineer type, learn languages in the following order:
C (will always be used for interfacing with hardware, and only those who shouldn't be in the profession can't understand the concept of pointers and how to use them properly.)
C++ (Is the proper follow-up language)
Java (Is so much like C++, you won't have a problem picking it up easily.
Python, Perl, Ruby, etc. (Python rocks, and is what I am teaching my 13 year old son. It is a good learning language to get smart high school kids interested in programming. Perl is more cryptic and has features that may be used OJT. I don't know much about Ruby, but I imagine it is incorporating features of many languages.)
Web related stuff: focus on the XML technologies, but don't drink the koolaid.
In closing, your personality is the key indicator for success (true for most professions). I strongly advise folks to check out the Activity Vector Analysis (AVA). The only regret I have is that I didn't do it sooner!
Kind regards to all,
David
David
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Using Vb.net windows application
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I spent four wonderful years studying music composition (i.e. writing music for symphony orchestras, piano sonatas, etc.). That was an excellent endeavour, and I think it was a great primer for learning how to program. Of course, starting to code at the age of 12 didn't hurt either (thanks Dad!).
I've met more than a few devs at various jobs who don't like to hear that I didn't study CS at school, as if that somehow makes me a "phony." Perhaps they just wish that they'd studied music instead of computer science! 
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Nah, they're just jealous because everyone knows that musician-programmers rock!
Party on Garth!!
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Jim Crafton wrote: Party on Garth!!
Party on Wayne!
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I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering and am self taught for VB.NET (current position) with several one week training courses in various other languages. I have meet several people with engineering background in the IT field.
djj
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Computer Science is an especial career.
I dropped University 3 times always because I got bored, usually 90% of the time the professors don’t know a sh.. they just tech the current University program.
I don’t have the degree and I don’t have a problem to get any job.
University (Computer Science) is useful to learn “TO THINK” and how to relate with your future pairs and professors; it is good to know the basic concept of computer science and how to look the solution to a problem, but whatever specific you can learn in 3-5 years gets obsolete.
A doctor 500 years ago had the same problem than a doctor today. The human body was and is the same…
Computers changes everyday and you must to keep updated or in 10 years your are obsolete too.
Many Universities still teach logic in Pascal, and I think is wonderful language to learn logic, but you will never make it outside knowing Pascal.
This career is about passion and how open are you to improve your skills EVERYDAY.
Don’t understand me wrong, I think University is useful and I’ll finish “eventually” because fullfill yourself, but on the field everything change.
If you are a self learner and very stubborn then you don’t need to go to University to be good at it.
--
If you think the chess rules are not fair, first beat Anand, Kasparov and Karpov then you can change them.
Moral is, don't question the work of others if you don't know the reason why they did it.
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I agree with you but at the same time I disagree with you.
I think A degree in is really useful in IT, it's one thing to say that things keep on changing , but in reality the foundations are the same. The principles in computers are all still the same.
As complicated as we may try to make it, eventually it all comes down to a load of Ones and Zero's, The principles of any programming language comes down to Logic, and in my mind logic can only be learnt by mathematics.
Therefore I think studying for a degree to enter the IT industry is essential as this will teach you basics to work in and understand the industry.
A doctor 500 years ago and a doctor today could probably still be able to communicate with each other, as they both have a similar grounding on biology, it is the efforts of those doctors of 500 years ago that got us to where the doctors today are.
I learnt programming using the BASIC language in 1982, but it is the understanding of BASIC that led me to C/C++, PASCAL, JAVA, C# etc, you have to start somewhere. I have done nearly every job in IT before I focused on programming. And I am sure most people will, and if you have a degree you will have an understanding of most of the concepts involved with computing. This industry is a vast complex one with many different fields in it. Some people are born to be programmers and some are born to be administrators and some are designers, some are purely business analysts. So It's essential to gain skills in most fields.
"a fool will not learn from a wise man, but a wise man will learn from a fool"
"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." - Theodore Roosevelt
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
My Website || My Blog
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As I said before:
>> University (Computer Science) is useful to learn “TO THINK” and how to relate with your future pairs and professors; it is good to know the basic concept of computer science and how to look the solution to a problem, but whatever specific you can learn in 3-5 years gets obsolete.
A doctor probably will use 90% of what he learned in university and residence in the everyday case. A Software engineer almost EVERYDAY has to reinvent the wheel because he/she has to use the brain to resolve a set of new problem, for the common task CodeProject will do the job for him/her.
If you want to learn the basic concepts which are really important then University is good, but for the everyday case is far form different.
I started with my Commodore 64 when I was 11, I programmed for 8 years in many language before I went to my first University, which was a very good experience because some professors teached me more than logic which I took it. But the rest everything got obsolete.
I still remeber when one of my professor used to say, Unix is a real operating system, Windows will never be... 
--
If you think the chess rules are not fair, first beat Anand, Kasparov and Karpov then you can change them.
Moral is, don't question the work of others if you don't know the reason why they did it.
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CastorTiu wrote: I still remeber when one of my professor used to say, Unix is a real operating system, Windows will never be...
--
And he is still right
"a fool will not learn from a wise man, but a wise man will learn from a fool"
"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." - Theodore Roosevelt
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
My Website || My Blog
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That's a silly statement, even if it's not a good one sometimes Windows is still an OS. The server version (except for price, and MS being sucky) is actually pretty good, stability and security have been vastly improved with Win2k and Win2k3.
General statements like that are misleading to people without direct experience.
if (!interested){return false;}
amclint
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amclint wrote: even if it's not a good one sometimes Windows is still an OS.
Thats right only sometimes is it an OS the rest of the time it's rubbish
amclint wrote: General statements like that are misleading to people without direct experience.
It was a joke.
"a fool will not learn from a wise man, but a wise man will learn from a fool"
"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." - Theodore Roosevelt
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
My Website || My Blog
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You can be the smartest, most ingenious coder or admin, but if you don't get noticed, no one will take you seriously. If you haven't established yourself in the field after so many years, no one will think you're serious.
Having the degree gets you 'noticed' but then you have to take it from there. Being personally responsible, organized, and personable are things schooling doesn't always teach you but you need anyway.
Not having the degree is no big deal, but you need to get 'noticed' on your own. Once you've established a few years, you can move on and the 'commensurate experience' trumps the need for degree. Take it from me.
The key is knowing what you're capable of and being reasonable. Your first tech job will probably be relatively low paying (not stating numbers here!). Your next job should be a decent increase.
Sometimes an employer wants someone with relatively 'easy' niche skills. Knowing Perl might get you in the door to a blue chip business because no one else they've interviewed knew what it was and bam, you're in the door. On the other hand, everyone knows .NET nowadays, so how do you tell them apart? Experience, you need to show cool projects and so many years experience working with it. Choose your path wisely.
Going back to the degree thing... when do you really need a degree? For many in technical fields, it's more of a nice to have for insurance that you land a good paying job.
---
Shawn Poulson
spoulson@explodingcoder.com
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My own experience is that a computing degree in and of itself is a waste of time.
If you do one, it's obsolete by the time you actually do it (degree courses take many years to be "ratified" by the various educational authorities), so by the time you're finished, it's about as much use in the real world as a chocolate teapot.
I spent 4 years at Uni, most of them happy, and yet never finished my computing degree. I've been almost continually employed as a programmer ever since. I don't regret going to Uni, because it taught me a lot about life, and problems, and people. It's an experience that lives with me in a positive way, even though I've never needed anything that was actually taught in the course (started writing 6502 assembly on the Commodore 64 when I was 12, been programming ever since).
Aspiring young developers need not (IMO) think they absolutely HAVE to have a computing degree to get ahead or even get a job. You learn far more useful things outside of the classroom, and in that way, you can pretty much do any degree you like.
There are qualifications out there which WILL serve you well in the real job world (MVP being one), but a bachelor's degree in computing is not one of them.
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Thanks to EEs and CS guys creating new biomedical devices, doctors have to know not only the anatomy, but also the OS of the device... Not easy. My Univ. has a program both for EEs and CSs and doctors to let them know the other area or at least have a common language so that they can consult with each other.
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I got a degree in Math 25 years ago. There was no computer science degree when I started college. I was trained in Fortran, PL/I (ever hear of it?), and assembly language.
I am self taught in Pascal, C, C++ and I'm currently learning Java and C#.
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Joe Q wrote: I got a degree in Math 25 years ago.
So you people, who worked in CS with math degrees, are the *ones* who invented computer science.. not to worry..
L.W.C. Nirosh,
Colombo,
Sri Lanka.
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I have just a bachelors degree and a few years of working experience, but I knew people who had many years in programming and still academic approach, even certifications. And they still had basic errors in their code (like T-SQL ugly syntax WHERE col = NULL) or they weren't able to differentiate between business, data access and presentation layers). So what is better, acquiring pompous titles which provide a good impression to HR managers or working and getting experience and knowledge?
Dan Radu
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Practical experience is almost always preferred. The aptitude of the individual is very important as well. I’ve worked with folks without a diploma who were amazing developers, and some with diplomas who really needed to think about changing careers. The converse is true as well.
As for me, I only have a High School diploma. I have some Microsoft certifications, but they are old now and were only used to get in the door. Now that my resume has “matured”, I have no problem getting in.
It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames.
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Maybe an exact option for "Some College" (no degree) might have been good as well.
I worked for both of my colleges(!) as a programmer and then asst. Sys Admin while I attended them. I realized that I was not learning anything more after my third year and I stopped attending classes in the middle of my second semester of my third year. No degree earned.
Where would that fit in with the above selections?
Peace!
-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
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