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That's a silly statement, even if it's not a good one sometimes Windows is still an OS. The server version (except for price, and MS being sucky) is actually pretty good, stability and security have been vastly improved with Win2k and Win2k3.
General statements like that are misleading to people without direct experience.
if (!interested){return false;}
amclint
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amclint wrote: even if it's not a good one sometimes Windows is still an OS.
Thats right only sometimes is it an OS the rest of the time it's rubbish 
amclint wrote: General statements like that are misleading to people without direct experience.
It was a joke.
"a fool will not learn from a wise man, but a wise man will learn from a fool"
"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." - Theodore Roosevelt
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
My Website || My Blog
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You can be the smartest, most ingenious coder or admin, but if you don't get noticed, no one will take you seriously. If you haven't established yourself in the field after so many years, no one will think you're serious.
Having the degree gets you 'noticed' but then you have to take it from there. Being personally responsible, organized, and personable are things schooling doesn't always teach you but you need anyway.
Not having the degree is no big deal, but you need to get 'noticed' on your own. Once you've established a few years, you can move on and the 'commensurate experience' trumps the need for degree. Take it from me.
The key is knowing what you're capable of and being reasonable. Your first tech job will probably be relatively low paying (not stating numbers here!). Your next job should be a decent increase.
Sometimes an employer wants someone with relatively 'easy' niche skills. Knowing Perl might get you in the door to a blue chip business because no one else they've interviewed knew what it was and bam, you're in the door. On the other hand, everyone knows .NET nowadays, so how do you tell them apart? Experience, you need to show cool projects and so many years experience working with it. Choose your path wisely.
Going back to the degree thing... when do you really need a degree? For many in technical fields, it's more of a nice to have for insurance that you land a good paying job.
---
Shawn Poulson
spoulson@explodingcoder.com
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My own experience is that a computing degree in and of itself is a waste of time.
If you do one, it's obsolete by the time you actually do it (degree courses take many years to be "ratified" by the various educational authorities), so by the time you're finished, it's about as much use in the real world as a chocolate teapot.
I spent 4 years at Uni, most of them happy, and yet never finished my computing degree. I've been almost continually employed as a programmer ever since. I don't regret going to Uni, because it taught me a lot about life, and problems, and people. It's an experience that lives with me in a positive way, even though I've never needed anything that was actually taught in the course (started writing 6502 assembly on the Commodore 64 when I was 12, been programming ever since).
Aspiring young developers need not (IMO) think they absolutely HAVE to have a computing degree to get ahead or even get a job. You learn far more useful things outside of the classroom, and in that way, you can pretty much do any degree you like.
There are qualifications out there which WILL serve you well in the real job world (MVP being one), but a bachelor's degree in computing is not one of them.
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Thanks to EEs and CS guys creating new biomedical devices, doctors have to know not only the anatomy, but also the OS of the device... Not easy. My Univ. has a program both for EEs and CSs and doctors to let them know the other area or at least have a common language so that they can consult with each other.
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I got a degree in Math 25 years ago. There was no computer science degree when I started college. I was trained in Fortran, PL/I (ever hear of it?), and assembly language.
I am self taught in Pascal, C, C++ and I'm currently learning Java and C#.
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Joe Q wrote: I got a degree in Math 25 years ago.
So you people, who worked in CS with math degrees, are the *ones* who invented computer science.. not to worry..
L.W.C. Nirosh,
Colombo,
Sri Lanka.
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I have just a bachelors degree and a few years of working experience, but I knew people who had many years in programming and still academic approach, even certifications. And they still had basic errors in their code (like T-SQL ugly syntax WHERE col = NULL) or they weren't able to differentiate between business, data access and presentation layers). So what is better, acquiring pompous titles which provide a good impression to HR managers or working and getting experience and knowledge?
Dan Radu
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Practical experience is almost always preferred. The aptitude of the individual is very important as well. I’ve worked with folks without a diploma who were amazing developers, and some with diplomas who really needed to think about changing careers. The converse is true as well.
As for me, I only have a High School diploma. I have some Microsoft certifications, but they are old now and were only used to get in the door. Now that my resume has “matured”, I have no problem getting in.
It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames.
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Maybe an exact option for "Some College" (no degree) might have been good as well.
I worked for both of my colleges(!) as a programmer and then asst. Sys Admin while I attended them. I realized that I was not learning anything more after my third year and I stopped attending classes in the middle of my second semester of my third year. No degree earned.
Where would that fit in with the above selections?
Peace!
-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
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A drop out 
Only joking
"a fool will not learn from a wise man, but a wise man will learn from a fool"
"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed." - Theodore Roosevelt
"Success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
My Website || My Blog
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No problem! I know that leaving college was my best decision and I am proud to say that I am a college dropout!
Peace!
-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
DeleteFXPFiles & CheckFavorites (Please rate this post!)
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Hi
I have a degree in "Computer Science" and doing Masters in Computer Science as well.I haveto freeze one term becuase I have to travel abroad on a company project. As I m going back to Pakistan next week, I have no mode to start my study again but I spent a handsome amount so far. . I think I have to restart
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While I have a degree in "Computer Science," it's really just a piece of paper; especially now, 25 years or so after the fact. It always seemed to me that the part of my degree relevant to programming could have been taught in high school; and that the "liberal arts" portion of my college education was a joke by the standards of earlier generations.
*AND* regardless of the degree, what I do now (C# programming as opposed to COBOL programming) is self-taught. I brought the ability to think, analyze and learn with me when I left home for college.
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I have a BEng in Electronice Engineering, which has nothing to do with what I do now. I also do C# and am self taught in that.
Words fade as the meanings change, but somehow, it don't bother me.
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Hello,
After reading the "high school" message... I got to wondering if all of the those "high school coders" out there really know what they are doing or not.
For example you wouldn't let your doctor operate on you without attending medical school and then doing an internship to actually see if they can perform the job or not. But yet we allow coders that do not have any advanced degree to write code that controls all sorts of data, be it important or not without thinking twice about it.
I wonder what you think about this?
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I do see that ~67% of the respondants do have a degree, but ~28% of the people coding do not
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M i s t e r L i s t e r wrote:
I wonder what you think about this?
Doctors need a lab to learn; programmers need a computer. You don't need to go to college to find a computer.
I'm self-taught, and I think I'm better off for it (knowledge-wise) because I didn't have to go at the pace of the lowest common denominators in class.
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There are important jobs that you don't need a degree for: Aircraft technician, Medical Equipment technician, Electrician, Car mechanic. Each of these people could end up killing someone if their jobs are not done correctly. But these are all jobs you can get into straight after school by showing that you have an aptitude for it (of course you do get on-job training etc. and you do have to write exams and get certified)
I found that while studying for my degree we used Java (and some courses used Delphi), but most people ended up getting jobs using Microsoft technologies (Sharepoint, Office, .NET, Biztalk, SQL Server). Not once while studying for my degree did I ever learn about any of these. Sure we learned about system design (which I had already learned in High School Comp. Science), computer theory (which I had already learned in High School) and there were other courses which, in the last 6 years, I have never had to use (Discrete Mathematics, Statistics). The first 2 years were repeats of my last 4 years at High School, the courses seemed to be designed for people who were starting from 0. My tertiary studies only proved useful for my employer, for them to have proof that I wasn't all talk.
All that being said, I do think that it is necessary to have some form of professional qualification (be it a diploma, MCTS, MCPD, Java Certs) when you enter the professional world. It forces you to learn things that you probably wouldn't have taught yourself and it also verifies to you that what you think you know, is correct. Eg. I did a course on HCI and that's something that has proved useful and it's something that I never could have taught myself (unless I had bought the textbooks and read through them).
-- modified at 4:48 Tuesday 7th November, 2006
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smdo1982 wrote: It forces you to learn things that you probably wouldn't have taught yourself and it also verifies to you that what you think you know, is correct.
No it doesn't. A D is still passing. It doesn't prove you know your field well at all. Granted it never hurts to have a degree, but I think you get a better education outside of college. It depends the person and how much they really want to learn. The degree is secondary.
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I wasn't talking about a degree.
For most of the MS certs a D is not a pass you need 70%+. I do still maintain that it does force you to investigate topics that you otherwise would not have looked at. You may not be an expert at the end but at least you are aware that they exist.
I am agreeing with you as far as it isn't necessary to get a degree, and that real life experience is second to none
(I just realised I originally replied on the wrong message, I meant to reply to MisterLister, think this may have added some confusion...  )
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smdo1982 wrote: I just realised I originally replied on the wrong message, I meant to reply to MisterLister, think this may have added some confusion...
Oh well, it all works out in the end. 
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While it MAY be said that universities and the rest teach restrictive thinking, I have discovered from my interaction with software developers that the years of training within the walls of a classroom goes a long way in shaping how we eventually approach real life problems. After all, software if just a tool with which we solve problems. It is a means to an end and not the end in itself.
How much work would be accomplished in developing a solution for a specialized field without a thorough understanding of the field in itself?
While I write software every day, I am also studying for a PhD in Electronic and Electrical Engineering. I see the direct impact of my academics within my daily work.
Please don't mention Bill Gates because Microsoft has a lot of PhD (if not Profs) working in their development teams.
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It's not the degree, it's the person behind it that was my point. A piece of paper is just that. Someone who wants to study hardcore computer science can do that just as easily outside of college.
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I wouldn't worry about it - a degree is only a means to an end (learning and getting a job) and offers no guarantees as to proficiency. What really matters is experience.
As a case in point, my degree (Electronic & Electrical Engineering, specialising in RF Electronics and DSP) is almost completely irrelevant to my career. Furthermore, the software related content on my course was at nowhere near as advanced a level as I'd already reached by myself, and I learnt very little. They certainly taught nothing about the areas I specialise in now (software quality and user interface design).
My partner Beth didn't do a degree at all. It hasn't stopped her becoming something of a guru on low level COM or database design, either. ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
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