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An small injection of new ideas into this dicussion:
First, an interesting book on this subject is "After the Gold Rush" by Steve McConnell, the same guy that wrote "Code Complete" and a generally smart guy.
Secondly, I think that there are a large number of 9 to 5 developers who simply work among the IT ranks as if were "just another job". These people are needed. There is much work to be done in IT nowadays and most of it isn't all that interesting. Many programs need to be written that does mundane reporting and moving data about and other such tasks.
However, I believe that the developers that ARE passionate about their work and try to push things to the edge are the developers that will push the envelope and come up with new and better ways of solving problems. These new and better ways will eventually filter down to the average developer that pounds out the everyday code.
I think that this process is not unique to IT. Think about other professions. Take civil engineering. There are lots of bridges that need building and it takes engineers to create them. These are your "everday" engineers. However, there are some challenges that require not just a new bridge, but a new kind of bridge. These are your passionate engineers that push the envelope and come up with new and better ways of doing things.
An interesting point in this analogy is that both the ordinary and the extraordinary engineers use standardized engineering practices to create their works. Though it is not currently the case (from what I've seen), developers should also use the same management and engineering practices whether or not they are creating state-of-the-art software or more mundane applications.
Chris Cubley
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>Accountants don't go on zealous wars over the type of ledger book they use.
Good point. I think I'll try and get funding for a research project. Of course it'll mean dissecting the brain of an accountant and a Linux user. That'll be fun 
>Marketing people are expected to act and look professional as their role >requires, they don't complain when the boss bans Megadeath t-shirts from the >office
So what we wear determines whether we are professional or not. That is what is wrong with the world today. Judged on looks and not on results. Of course, I agree with the acting professionally. Trouble is most developers of the kind you describe have trouble interacting with people which leads to incorrect judgements about them.
>We are workers plain and simple, just like Joe in accounts and Jane in HR.
Drop the plain and simple and I'll agree. We are all workers, we all have our special talents. There is nothing plain and simple about anybody. Except managers of course, I find them to be very simple
>If you think I am nuts then just come spend a month with me working with IT >contractors. I have never met a bunch of greater prima-donnas.
Hey, I'm a contractor No, actually you are right again. I've only just started this contracting lark. Some of the contractors I've worked with in the past have come across as prima-donnas. I think a lot is down to the personality of the people though. If you want to talk prima-donnas, you should meet some of the Sales pukes I've had to work with
>But that methodology cannot last much longer, it is inefficient and costly.
But in an ever changing world, it is probably cheaper to get in and play with a new technology rather than go on lots of expensive training courses. A developer is always learning on the job because the demands of the users / Bill Gates are always increasing.
Michael
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But you see, I'm an outlaw programmer, and will always be an outlaw programmer. I have no wish to be ciivilized or even categorized as such for the sake of some political agenda for the betterment of mankind.
I guess I've gotten to the point that I can't be tamed or held back, the modern-day Frankenstien's Monster, invented by Borland, brought to life by Microsoft, and currently escaped and running amok on the landscape we know as Windows.
To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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the modern-day Frankenstien's Monster, invented by Borland, brought to life by Microsoft, and currently escaped and running amok on the landscape we know as Windows
Very poetic, showing your sensitive, new-age side huh? 
Would make a good quote actually 
Actually, would you care to explain "outlaw programmer" to us poor law abiding pillow biters?
Do you reckon there were "outlaw accountants" or "outlaw soda-dispensing-refillers" when these fields were new on the landscape? Or is IT, and therefore you, unique?
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
"In other words, the developer is dealing with an elephant, the accountant is dealing with a bunny rabbit." by Stan Shannon - 16/10/2001
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It's all about attitude:
We're the guys that color outside the lines of normal programming, doing what can't (and maybe shouldn't) be done, and refusing to give in to or consider the political ramifications of our actions. We have no allegiance to anything but code, and if it can be thought of, it can be accomplished through software, and we, the outlaw programmers of the world, shall be the ones who write that code.
Free-thinkers, such as we, are often considered by lesser individuals to be outlaws. I wear the badge proudly. More of us should. I know that others here have been awarded the badge but refuse to wear it for fear of reprisal from those who would work to destroy us.
RISE UP, I SAY, AND BE COUNTED!
I now return you to your regularly scheduled chaos.
To hell with those thin-skinned pillow-biters. - Me, 10/03/2001
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Well spoken.
Dejan Petrovic
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Well Paul, it seems that people have said almost everything that can be said about this topic and it's quite pointless for me to add much more. You are now looking at the problem from the company owners view, not the programmers one, and those are two completely different worlds. I like doing new things, cracking problems, enjoying my work at any given time of day or night, having fun through my work. And getting payed well for that. I don't know it it's art or not, but it's surely different from your accountants or HR's. They don't venture to the territories where they haven't been before. They simply don't deal with as abstract and complex problems as programmers do. That's what makes us different.
There is a limit to the profit only filosophy. I am surely not against it, profit is the driving force of our society, but you just can't see everything through money filter
After all, you are a programmer. Not an accountant.
Dejan Petrovic
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Profit is the only philosophy whereby you get to eat and have a roof over your head. I'm sorry, but while I find accountants to be pedants, without some of their POV we would not have jobs at all.
Christian
As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet.
Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I've never been on a training course, apart from the seminars at TechEd which aren't the same thing. I've always got by with books, MSDN and a bit of playing around.
I've often thought about going on DevelopMentors COM courses, but distance and expense have always won out.
What courses have you attended and for what technologies? Were they helpful? Are some technologies easier to pickup on training courses that others.
Michael
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I have been to DevelopMentors Guerilla COM and COM UI classes. I enjoyed the business trip to attend teh conference. I did learn, but they are very expensive and I would not attend if my company did not pay for it. As long as my company does offer to pay for trips like this, i take advantage of them.
I also think that it is more valuable to learn about the topic before you go, that way the instructor can reaffirm what you have learned.
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I have attended a couple training courses. It was nice that my company paid for these, but I doubt if it was really worth the time and money. In one couse, I only used maybe 20% of what I learned in the course, and I probably could have learned that from books or other means.
Also, unless the material in the course is directly relevant to what you will do in the immediate future, you'll probably forget it... such as the 80% in the course that I *didn't* use. 
The way I see it, if I want to learn something not too complicated, I either find a knowledgeable co-worker, or get a good book. If it is something substantial, I'd take a night class at a nearby college or something. One week training courses and the like would be a last resort.
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Hmmmm.... The title for current poll suggests some outdoor activities with Kalashnikovs etc 
Tomasz Sowinski -- http://www.shooltz.com
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LOL. Now I am imagining scenes of C++ programmers shooting at targets of VB programmers...
-= =-
Dr David Wulff, Phd Aqkuoerian Sciences
dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
Founder of The BLA
tlhIngan maH! Hab SoSlI' Quch! (in Aqkuoerian)
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Where is that CAMP???? I want to go there....
Cheers....
Carlos Antollini.![Green Alien | [Alien]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/alien.gif)
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And Java programmers are crawling instead of running. 
Farhan Noor Qureshi
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looooooool
Good One
Cheers
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Now, now, jealousy makes you nasty. No need to shoot us priviliged VB developers... All you have to do is see the light and come to our side.
But if you want we can team up against Java developers. Least kills gets to debug someone elses JavaScript code...
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
"The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge
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JavaScript! JavaScript! JavaScript! Nooooooo.......
I take it you read my profile then?
-= =- Dr David Wulff, Phd Aqkuoerian Sciences
dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
Founder of The BLA
"Look out Michael, here I come"
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Reminds me DevelopMentor's Boot Camp and its more recent version: Guerrilla Camp
Don't panic. Consider this:
DevelopMentor has always taken pride in quality and amenities of our own training centers. But as nice as they are, we don’t have beds within walking distance of your development environment or the food service capability to serve you 3 meals a day. That is why our Guerrilla courses are always held at a groovy hotel and include your room and meal expenses.
http://www.develop.com/dm/course.asp?id=1
// Fazlul
Get RadVC today! Play RAD in VC++
http://www.capitolsoft.com
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