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Jeremy Falcon wrote: there are a lot of people in it just for the money who should've never been in the industry to begin with.
So true!
Jeremy Falcon wrote: it's usually the people with the biggest egos that perform the worst at their jobs.
Yeah, generally, they are completely unaware of the people around them, because they can't see past their own egos. Very sad, as they cause so much unnecessary pain and suffering.
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People are generally promoted until they reach their own level of incompetence.
No point in bitching about this because it applies universally, including to oneself; and we all want to be promoted to as high up the ladder as we can get.
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Not true and sometimes true. Most people are just under proficient for their role. Which is another word for incompetence. Some learn on the job to at least do their role and some move on.
Also, gonna point out the irony dude... you're bitching about not bitching. Look inward. 
haughtonomous wrote: and we all want to be promoted to as high up the ladder as we can get.
You're projecting. Not everyone wants that. A famous example being Woz.
Jeremy Falcon
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I never thought about being promoted, I stayed a firmware engineer my whole career (just love the low level stuff). If you gave me cool projects to work on I was happy.
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I spent my whole career working hard to stay at the bottom of the corporate ladder.
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haughtonomous wrote: People are generally promoted until they reach their own level of incompetence.
I thought that was part of the Dilbert Principle. I have the book. It's been years I've read it, but that's pretty much what I remember of it.
haughtonomous wrote: and we all want to be promoted to as high up the ladder as we can get.
Broad sweeping statements such as this are absolutely and unequivocally untrue, and I don't even know how one might even make that suggestion. What motivates people is different amongst different people.
Even before I started my career as a software developer, I knew the day I'd be promoted to any sort of management position would be the day I'd quit my job, changed fields or retired, no ifs or buts about it.
That holds truer than ever as I'm getting closer and closer to retirement age.
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It is actually the Peter principle: Quote: "Employees are promoted according to their current progress rather than the required skills and aptitude"
. Dr. Laurence Peter described it in his 1969 book "The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong".The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong. The principle has been summarized as "Employees rise to their level of incompetence" or "Once you learn your current job really well, we'll promote you to a job you will need to learn". He bemoans the fact that most employers do not provide the training needed to make the employee competent at the new job.
Things have changed, though, since 1969. Most employers are now reluctant to provide training for any employee.
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Member 15049334 wrote: reluctant to provide training for any employee.
Now they charge employees for training when they leave.
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Member 15049334 wrote: It is actually the Peter principle:
Right. The original that Scott Adams satirizes (satires?)
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haughtonomous wrote: want to be promoted to as high up the ladder as we can get
Anyone with that attitude should be fired immediately.
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Oh, wow. I am definitely going to check that book out.
That's what I actually believe about Leadership. It's actually about serving people -- so they can bring their best selves to do the work. Few actually believe this, fewer still who are managers.
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Leadership and management are two distinct and different skills. Only a very few exhibit both in equal measure.
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So you're that guy? You make up stuff I never said to reply against? I never said otherwise dude.
Jeremy Falcon
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I didn't say you did. I was making an observation, that's all.
Maybe you need to consider that opinions that differ from yours are just as valid?
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Maybe you need to learn how to interact with humans.
Jeremy Falcon
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I think you should take your own advice. You seem to be remarkably intolerant of anyone not conforming to your world view.
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Or maybe you're just argumentative and immature with not enough insight to reflect. Either way, you're wasting my time dude. I don't expect much from this conversation.
Jeremy Falcon
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Oh and since you're gonna feel all powerful and crap, hiding behind the fake veil of the Internet with your little anonymity, we both know you ain't gonna stop. So, you can have your whatever the hell this is. I'm going back to the adults now.
Jeremy Falcon
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My favorite book on management is called "Fish!" and it is a must read for anyone who needs to manage people. It's primarily about fostering positive work culture where everyone feels like they are part of a team with a common goal - creating an environment where people want to show up and contribute.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: It's primarily about fostering positive work culture where everyone feels like they are part of a team with a common goal - creating an environment where people want to show up and contribute.
That is a great summary of what it should be -- and what I've always hoped it would be.
But alas...
I've seen the Fish! book before. I will check it out on your recommendation. 
Thanks
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I've been lucky enough to work at a couple of places where it was like that. One was a startup though, and it was during the .com boom - basically selling shovels during the gold rush - so they eventually went under.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I had expected you would recommend “Cat Herding: Keeping Your Developers on Task”. 😊
Note: I just made up the title, but it might actually exist.
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> But, there's one caveat
As they say, ignorance is bliss. There's at least a little truth to it.
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raddevus wrote: that every one of the managers you've ever had __say__ that they want to do, but end up never doing
The reality is that humans are average.
But they are also average, below average and above average often in many areas.
And the fallacy is in assuming that they can learn and/or be taught to become better. And there are many ways in which that path can fail, from a failure to actually understand what lead to success in the first place, a failure to present it, a failure in the student to be actively engaged, the failure in the student to understand what is presented, the material is inappropriate to the students situation, etc.
There are many examples of this. The US education system rolls out a new type of skills teaching every couple of years and has been doing it for at least 50 years. Critics like to point out the failures in the new systems while ignoring that all of the older systems were failing as well.
Certainly anyone that has spent any time in sales has probably sat through numerous sessions with yet another 'system' that will improve sales. Often presented with very nebulous steps as well.
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