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Chris Maunder wrote:
Are you using VS.NET?
Yes. On a 17" wide screen laptop with 8 point font. The rightmost column is #200. And yes, I know about the margin guide feature, which is turned off, as are horizontal and vertical scroll bars and that stupid selection margin. (if you can't navigate with a keyboard, what is the point of being a programmer, eh?) I want to see code. Period. 
I'm curious why you ask, though.
Marc
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You're hard core mate. You're well hard :P
cheers,
Chris Maunder
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I normally try to stay within the first 80 columns. It requires creative indenting in C# and Java I've noticed which itself may be a fun activity. 
But, I've come to the conclusion that C/C++ needs < 80 columns while all other languages may very well use more than 80 columns. Mostly because files in those languages will never be edited or view through a tty, only in a GUI environment 
--
Frivolous Theorem of Arithmetic: Almost all natural numbers are very, very, very large.
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It's got to be both really. Writing 'readable' code is not as easy as it sounds. One programmers coding may use techniques that are unknown to whoever is reading the code.
The old VB 'DataField & ""' is one technique that is obvious to me but not to anybody who doesn't know what it does!
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that programmers can write. More specifically, that they can express the concept of the code in English. And since a lot of programmers can't even express their concepts properly in code, how the heck are they going to say it in English?
Marc "Sarcasm 'R Us" Clifton
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Amen, brother. Comments should describe 'why' or 'how' you are doing something. Most programmers know the 'why' and the 'how' intrinsically, but can't or won't express it verbally in their comments.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
Comments should describe 'why' or 'how' you are doing something.
This is a really good point. Describing "what" you're doing is often nothing more than psuedo-coding the code itself. But describing why something is done in a particular way, or how it is being done, is much harder because it often involves the surrounding context. Where does one start in describing why? I have this problem myself when trying to explain the why of the AAL. It's darn hard, but worth the effort. On many occasions, after explaining the "why" to myself, I end up saying to myself, "gee, that's a stupid reason!". 
Marc
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In my case, the 'why' and 'how' are usually pretty easy. The software I work on does process control (we build high speed ink jet printers[^]), so the why's and how's are usually related to something the hardware is doing. A dilettante would say that, if you're having trouble stating 'why', maybe you need to think about the approach (the 'how') a little more. My how's usually are limited to difficult algorithms.
As an example, I needed a wildcard matching routine. I found one on the C/C++ User's Journal web site. Unfortunately, the routine wasn't usable in its original state. It wasn't well structured (multiple exits), didn't use our naming conventions, and didn't provide a couple of minor behaviors I wanted. I ended up rewriting the routine. For documentation of my version, however, I included the code for the original in a block comment, including the web address of the original article.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
so the why's and how's are usually related to something the hardware is doing.
That's cool. I love working with hardware. In some ways, it makes programming easier because the hardware creates a bounded space in which the software must function. Sort of like communicating with a child--you have to use small words and simple sentences. (OK, that's a really off-the-cuff analogy).
Gary Wheeler wrote:
however, I included the code for the original in a block comment, including the web address of the original article.
Nice. I've been doing that with the AAL articles (as far as weblinks, authors, etc) for code that I use that I've found on CP. Personally, one of the things I find even more appealing than writing the articles is the connections that form from people posting links to things that they've encountered. Very enriching.
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Sort of like communicating with a child
You ought to see one of our CMYK machines acting like a non-potty-trained toddler. Why is it the yellow head always lets go first? 
Software Zen: delete this;
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Good point.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch ![Green Alien | [Alien]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/alien.gif) "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Programmers than can express themselves in english are worth 10-15k more a year.
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...for tranfering the responsibility from the writer to the reader.
"What? You don't understand my code?- Learn reading, it's all commented"
But a comment make any code running...
void main(void)
{
// char *pszText = new char[2];
// pszText[3] = '?';
}
...yeah, it works
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That is one use for commenting.
void main(void)<br />
{<br />
<br />
}
I think my mod is good
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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I've tested it, it works. Cool stuff. Comments are really powerful  !
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Comments are a waste of time.
Future developers will either understnad it or not.
If they can't understand it without comments, then that's actually good, because you don't wan't some 3rd rate hack messing with your masterpiece.
Understandable code, is subjective.
Understandable to who, and for what purpose.
What really matters is it can build without problems, then it can run without BSODs.
Too much emphasis is place on this stupid unstandability notions.
What really nmatters is if the creator can keep the whole train of thought as he/she types away.
Having to add comments etc, is only going to ruin productivity.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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You are obviously trolling but this is still worth mention; Any fool can get compiled code, it is at run-time that counts.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Paul Watson wrote:
You are obviously trolling but this is still worth mention;
Not entirely Paul. I realise that a lot of people will disagree with me, and what I ahve just said goes against the popular opinion, but I do believe it.
Paul Watson wrote:
Any fool can get compiled code, it is at run-time that counts.
Agreed, clients are happy if you can produce quality goods at a reasonable price. Software is no different apart from a few exceptions.
If a solution is required, it doesn't matter if it is created in C++. C# VB, Pascal, Forth, Lisp, or Lego. What matters is if it meets the requirements of the client. Commenting and creating understandable code is a micro issue.
For instance C++ allows a developer to break his work into classes, what really matters is if the conventions for calling procedures in the classes are strong. If the class has been made bug-free and robust it never needs a second look. So what's the point in internal understandability or comments ?
If a class has problems, the developer should just rewrite it better the next time.
The whole issue of reusability is crud if you are going to have to be perpetually maintaining code, as the flow on effects are going to be horrendous. It appears these days 90+ % of developers spend there time not actually developing but maintaining. This proves that the code initially accepted was not up to scratch.
Adding comments and attempting to make code understandable to third parties, just proves that you have no confidence in the future of your code.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Colin Davies wrote:
So what's the point in internal understandability or comments ?
When the initial developer of an application is fired/leaves and the client has to get a new developer to maintain the application.
We recently had this exact problem. A client was in trouble as a contractor had developed a system for them and then buggered off to London. They needed some new features and so sent us the code. It was very hard to read code. Technically it worked well, the architecture was sound and the system at run-time worked. Took us ages though to work through the non-understandable code without comments.
Colin Davies wrote:
This proves that the code initially accepted was not up to scratch.
I disagree. No system can be programmed at the outset to meet all future requirements. Businesses change and require new features in existing applications. Rewriting the app is insane, the business may only have changed slightly.
Colin Davies wrote:
Adding comments and attempting to make code understandable to third parties, just proves that you have no confidence in the future of your code.
Another facet is this; We work on many projects at once and trying to keep how each one works code wise in my head at once is impossible.
At times I will be phoned on a saturday night and asked to "quickly" fix something on a 6 month old project that has long entered the Recycly bin of my mind. Having readable code with comment-pointers is invaluable at 1am on a Sunday morning.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Paul Watson wrote:
Businesses change and require new features in existing applications. Rewriting the app is insane, the business may only have changed slightly.
No the spec and requiremnets have changed. This is no longer maintenance, but enhancement.
By now altering the original working code, you are actually as an analogy, placing an old modified part in a near new car.
This is neither good or fair for the client in the long run.
Quite likely this act of "maintenance" will introduce *bugs* into a good product.
Paul Watson wrote:
We work on many projects at once and trying to keep how each one works code wise in my head at once is impossible.
This is a real concern and a problem created by managemment, having a developer working on multiple projects simultaneously can only degrade performance.
Its like having all the car pieces in a garage as the workers work on cars thrown into one pile.
This is in effect what the management are doing with you.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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Colin Davies wrote:
Its like having all the car pieces in a garage as the workers work on cars thrown into one pile.
Don't be so dramatic Colin, you sound like me.
Obviously I don't sit with three IDEs open trying to code three projects at once. What I mean is a developer is not going to spend a solid month on one project alone. In a perfect world this would be the case, but even I don't live in that world.
Anyway, you are trolling :P
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
Crikey! ain't life grand?
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Paul Watson wrote:
Anyway, you are trolling
Yes, I confess.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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How arrogant are you?
So you've never had to go back and change an application to meet new requirements? Suggests to me that was because it was never really used.
When an application is dependable and reliable it becomes part of a companies life and essential to operations and as business requirements change, the software needs to as well.
Re-usablility is crud! I have libraries that I regually drop into new application and can build a new CRM or PIM application for a company in about a week. WHY? because my crud is designed properly and works well 
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LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
How arrogant are you?
Very.
LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
So you've never had to go back and change an application to meet new requirements?
Yes, I use to go back and make modifications etc.
But I have now learned that if my development was well organized initially it easier to just rewite segments or classes in their entirety. Maybe this as easier for me then other developers, as I seem to recall all the breakthrough stuff that was needed to be done the first time, and subsequent versions are just a matter of keyboard skills.
LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
Suggests to me that was because it was never really used.
The royalty payments I recieve suggest businesses are still paying for stuff from a while ago. Unsure if they use it though. 
LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
Re-usablility is crud!
I think you are misquoting me out of context here.
LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
WHY? because my crud is designed properly and works well
Good.
So what's the point in commenting it !
Regardz
Colin J Davies
* WARNING *
This could be addictive
The minion's version of "Catch ![Green Alien | [Alien]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/alien.gif) "
It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox
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OK, Ok. So you don't believe in commenting. What about your documentation or don't you believe in that either?
I personally use .Net's XML documentation feature. Explain what the proc is supposed to do and return and if there is a problem with the function the new developer can just re-write it.
How about that for a compromise?
(P.S. You've started a good one here  )
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