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Here's something to consider.
What if he experienced a psychotic break? What happens during a psychotic break is that a person loses touch with reality. Losing touch with reality could easily have been what caused such bizarre behavior. It can happen to anyone, even if there is no evidence that could indicate the presence of mental illness. It's possible that mental illness may not even be present. A psychotic break can happen to someone as a result of a medical condition. Oftentimes, a psychotic break will occur as a result of significant stress or trauma. If you're a pilot over the age of 40, you require a health checkup every six months. It's required by law. It's well within reason to consider that he has passed his health checkups without any problems in the past. It's well within reason to understand that without any history of mental illness, this can happen to someone without forewarning. Given that these psychotic episodes occur in a state of psychological stress, he may have acted out of panic, with a delusion that caused him to believe there was in fact an engine fire. If this were to be the case, how would it change your opinion? By no means would I consider ruling this possibility out. If this were in fact the case, would it affect your opinion? How so?
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For the initial question, it is attempted murder, even if the plane did not crash or was not likely to crash - you are judged for what you tried to achieve, not by whether it could still be avoided or not. A defence line like "Look, I am an experienced pilot, and I knew the plane would not crash" might succeed, but will still be hard to, IMHO.
As for the psychotic issue : In France, it goes that way : experts will say whether a criminal had all his mind and means when attempting or performing a crime. If you are judged mentally disabled - be it temporarily or definitely, you cannot get sentenced, but you usually end up in psychiatric hospital for like forever.
In any cases, this is a complicated topic - This case : Germanwings Flight 9525 - Wikipedia[^] ended up in very different sentences for the company or company members. There was no post-mortem sentence for the pilot though, since you cannot sentence someone who died.
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Remember, the charges were brought by a lawyer 
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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What if he had succeeded to crash the plane, killing everyone else on board, but miraculously managed to survive, would he then have any responsibility the deaths of the other 83?
So they did not die. He is not accused of killing them, only of attempting to. Are there various degrees of attempting to kill 83 persons, some are justifiable, others are not - and trying to crash an airplane is a justifiable killing attempt, when it was prevented?
One bad thing about the legal system of the US, as seem from abroad, is that when we see fiction movies ridiculing it, we frequently have problems distinguishing them from what we read in news media about actual lawsuits. It is so that given the right lawyers (and judges) I wouldn't be the least surprised if they decided that he certainly attempted to crash the plane, and he was not mentally disturbed in the legal sense, but responsible for his actions, yet he is aquitted. We are regularly reminded that there are reasons for those ridiculing movies!
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Steve Raw wrote: I don't know what happened up there,
That is a very true statement, but spare a thought for the captain and the first officer who found themselves with a 200 pounds, 6ft 1" guy who went off the rails in a confined space full of breakers, levers and handles. All that in plane with a L/D ratio of around 14 giving you probably less than 100 miles or 15 minutes before grass goes in the cockpit. I've seen bar fights that take longer than that In the end, with adrenaline going through the roof, they tell ATC "we have a guy that went a bit overboard". Mic drop.
Steve Raw wrote: Should he be charged with attempted murder?
Most certainly. Sadly, this will not prevent similar incidents from happening in the future. Nervous breakdown can happen in any profession and it has happened to pilots before. See Germanwings Flight 9525 - Wikipedia[^]
Mircea
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Message Closed
modified 26-Oct-23 12:06pm.
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Steve Raw wrote: it's a little more complex than what you're describing here.
It sure is. That was just a back of the envelope calculation meant to show that crew didn't have lots of time to solve the situation. They needed to react quickly and correctly and did just that. Again kudos to a very professional crew!
Steve Raw wrote: Most importantly, remember to acknowledge a person's right to form their own opinion, and be sure to respect their opinion when you are exercising the right to express yours.
I don't see where I failed to do that, but if you feel offended, please accept my apologies - it wasn't intentional.
Mircea
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Mircea Neacsu wrote: I don't see where I failed to do that, but if you feel offended, please accept my apologies - it wasn't intentional.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that I was talking specifically to you. It was just a reminder to everyone who may be viewing or posting to this thread. No need to apologize. I failed to specify that I was addressing everyone.
Mircea Neacsu wrote: It sure is. That was just a back of the envelope calculation meant to show that crew didn't have lots of time to solve the situation. They needed to react quickly and correctly and did just that. Again kudos to a very professional crew!
I see what you mean now. I inferred that you were stating technical specs.
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If I shoot you in the guts with .22LR (and I aim away from the liver), and you drive yourself to the hospital before bleeding to death (which will take at least 30 min) and you receive a proper surgery/treatment, the chances you die from the wound are about as high as getting struck by lightning while sitting on the toilet.
BTW: At that altitude the speed ranges that will keep the airplane in the air are very narrow. With both engines on idle even a small error or delay to act from the crew could (and will) stall the plane. Which is not going to be fun for the passengers even if the pilot-flying later regain control.
Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
modified 24-Oct-23 12:59pm.
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"At that altitude the speed ranges that will keep the airplane in the air are very narrow."
IAS(indicated airspeed) holds true at any altitude, so if the IAS is 250 knots at FL300 and say the stall speed is 150 knots they surely still have a 100 knot window of safe flight?
Or are they flying at 150 knots IAS at FL300?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Means at lower altitude the airplane can fly between let say 200 and 400 knots but in higher altitude it will stays in the air only if it makes between 350 and 400 knots.
Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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He was "too perfect".
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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I think you are asking this question to the wrong group of people. You should be asking this to the 83 people on the plane.
Brent
Brent
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Best response in the entire thread.
(the fact that I heartily agree with you notwithstanding)
Software Zen: delete this;
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Message Closed
modified 26-Oct-23 12:09pm.
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But asking a group of <insert-your-own-stereotype> programmers a legal question is different, how? I think you will not get a beer can lobbed at you - unless it is empty.
Brent
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Check my previous posts. I'm not asking a legal question, I'm asking for opinions you have in regard to charges of attempted murder.
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I do believe in the attempted murder charges, trying to kill the engines was probably the first step, then nose dive or stall to try and seal the deal. Quick action by the crew seems to have prevented this. A murder/suicide scenario if you will. Not too different than someone putting a gun to your head, pulling the trigger and having the gun jam, the intent was there and it was acted upon.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
modified 24-Oct-23 19:58pm.
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I wonder if a quick blood test would verify that, and, gosh that's a good out. But he can't walk back from shrooms It's done now.
modified 24-Oct-23 21:44pm.
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Kind of like a drunk driver, but being drunk is not a good out.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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I guess you've never done shrooms before.
I did once. Never more said the raven. (I kid you not)
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Ron Anders wrote: I guess you've never done shrooms before.
You would be correct, however knowingly ingesting something that may seriously affect your cognitive function, then using it as an excuse is BS in my book.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Steve Raw wrote: What do you think? Did he attempt to murder 83 people?
It is called charge stacking.
Myself charge stacking should not be allowed.
Like filing a murder charge and also filing a discharging a gun within the city limits. Rather idiotic prosecutorial strategy these days.
But, legally, certainly allowed.
Doesn't matter though. The plea will be temporary insanity regardless.
But he won't be flying again regardless of the outcome.
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Well, said. If he was in a state of a psychotic break, he was not in touch with reality. If he really pulled those engine fire handles while out-of-touch with reality, and he was being honest about stating he did it to "escape a bad dream", then he's got something to argue.
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