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The most important thing is not to make assumptions about the hirer's assumptions and what cannot be. "They don't accept...", "I can't because you have to...".
If you want it, go for it. Your hit rate will be lower as you get older but, your ability to sell yourself and the product on your shelf will be better.
You only definitely cannot get it if you don't ask/try for it. Dutch saying, "Nee heb je, ja kun je krijgen", "You have no, yes you can get".
Having said that I knew people who considered themselves "on the heap" at 35 but, it was untested attitude not fact.
Andy
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virang_21 wrote: How did you overcome this obstacle?
remote - contractor (7 years now for me).
you will never be paid what you are worth if you continue to work for an employer as a regular full time employee. You must go independent contractor, which is almost always remote (work from home). Granted, I don't get paid time off, only sick leave, so that adds an extra $32K to the salary, which is great.
Pro tip: ALWAYS get a 5-8K+ pay increase when starting a new job. NEVER take the same pay as your last job.
Pro tip: NEVER specialize in a technology that is not in demand. ALWAYS keep your skill set current.
I jumped jobs every 2 years for a while till I was making a competitive salary and before I went independent contractor.
your goal is to be making 130K+ by the time you hit 12-15 years in the business; sooner if you are lucky.
![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif)
modified 29-Jun-21 4:52am.
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I got laid off 30 years ago at the age of 41 and could not find a job to save my life, even though I lived in Silicon Valley. As a result, I went into independent consulting. No one would hire a consultant on a 1099, so I incorporated (C-corp). This became very lucrative until the downturn in the economy circa 2011. As a result I decided to retire shortly thereafter when I turned 62.
The nice thing about a C-corp is that you can virtually deduct everything, including health care and contributions to retirement plans, etc. My monthly salary was held to a minimum, thus reducing my taxes. The only downside was that I contributing less to my Social Security, which makes my retirement check less. I estimate the corporation made up to $191K a year prior to my retirement 10 years ago.
In my opinion, it is difficult to get a "real" job after you turn 40, but that doesn't mean it's the end of your career.
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Slacker007 wrote: Pro tip: ALWAYS get a 5-8K+ pay increase when starting a new job. NEVER take the same pay as your last job.
I'm terrible when it comes to putting a number together. What I've always done is state upfront what I was making at my last job, but if they decide to keep me after 3 months, I'm expecting a healthy raise. Maybe it's just me, but that approach has always worked out. Not that I'm job-hopping--at the age of 49, I've only gone through the hiring process 3 times in my life (well, in my career as a software developer).
Slacker007 wrote: Pro tip: NEVER specialize in a technology that is not in demand. ALWAYS keep your skill set current.
At the same time, don't confuse "in demand" with "common". If you have a skillset that nobody else has, and you have someone with the need, you can ask for just about anything you want.
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I'm 49 years old. I only posted what worked for me. Obviously, everyone else's life situation will be different.
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Exactly. There's no one-size-fits-all solution. I just wanted to add my own perspective. There's no wrong or right.
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virang_21 wrote: How did you overcome this obstacle?
I wouldn't equate a ceiling on salary as an "obstacle". It depends what your priorities are. As a developer, I now earn half what I did as Head Of IT for a multinational. But I now: work mostly, 9-5; have very little stress; and enjoy writing software far more than managing an IT Team.
And don't assume that age is just a barrier to landing a Programming job. Ageism exists at every level.
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1. Add value. In my case, this was developing in-house application frameworks that significantly improved productivity.
2. Find managers who understand the value. If you end up with one who doesn't, plan to move on. This can be internally if you're at a large enough firm.
3. Move to a jurisdiction where you're treated as less of a milk cow at tax time. This also made a big difference for me.
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Greg Utas wrote: Add value
This is key.
If you absolutely must stay as a permie employee (I've never found any convincing reason for this) then you need to make certain your bosses really understand the contribution your work makes to the bottom line, and that you are not replaceable. If you then "waver" in your loyalty to the company, you may get a pay increase that partially reflects your value.
But the surer way is to go freelance, and charge by results, not time spent. No-one's going to be happy paying you $500/hour, but if you can do $5000 worth of work and you let them think it took you a week, they'll be happy to pay. They don't need to know you did it in a day, and put your feet up the other 4 days (or did similar work for 4 other clients). The key here is to really understand the requirements before you quote (including the likelihood of those requirements changing), then making sure you meet your own estimates, and ideally over-delivering.
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Whether an employee or contractor, it has to start with delivering value.
Or at least until recently: Dilbert 2020-12-24[^] 
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virang_21 wrote: has celling on how much you can make doing certain things.
Everything has a ceiling. You cannot make more than what the market says you are worth. Not for long at least.
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Let me see
Im 61 now and in all honesty I havent had to work for a living in 35 years, I get paid pretty good money to do the thing I really really enjoy.
They even come up with new ways for me to entertain my brain. I dont see that stopping soon.
Yes I know I could have gone independent and raked in lots more £$ but that is not my motivation, as long as I have enough for my needs and wants and have something fun to occupy me, Im happy.
I get to learn on the job and make a difference. I work with great and talented people, from where I sit, Ive got it made.
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g_p_l wrote: Yes I know I could have gone independent and raked in lots more £$ but that is not my motivation, as long as I have enough for my needs and wants and have something fun to occupy me, Im happy.
My feelings exactly!
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I don't care about money any more than I have to. I've never pursued it. I pursue coding for its own sake. The money is so I can afford to do it more. That's all.
Everything is either a labor of love, or something I feel helps someone.
At one point in my career I realized that the only way to keep coding was to ask what I was worth, so I had to learn what that was.
I was young and the answer shocked me at first.
So I'm probably not the best person to ask.
I'm one of the luckiest people in the industry though, because I barely actually "work" - I get paid to play.
Real programmers use butterflies
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virang_21 wrote: how do you manage getting $$$ amount that align to your skill set.
If I were to ask for the $$$ that align with my skill set, I would never find a job.
Instead, I look at what I need, what the market for the region typically pays for the position, and what I'm offered. At the end of the day, if (whatImOffered > whatINeed + painFactor) then I'm happy.
painFactor is for the mitigating circumstances: commute time, crappy environment, crappy development rig, outdated tooling, excessive management, excessive processes, other developers are not anywhere near my skill level, etc.
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The short answer is: I always picked my jobs based on what interests me most, not based on the pay checks. That keeps me motivated and open to new things: At 57 I started in my current position as a CAD plugin developer for a startup company(!).
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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It's not when 'careers' end that matters, given that if you are gainfully working then it is still a career, but rather where/when it starts so that you can navigate, or at least steer, your way to a happy old age.
Old age will come despite what all the "it's over by 40" headlines say. It's usually that folk get experienced, and experience usually pays in whatever you are good at (even COBOL, so I've heard).
Management often pays that bit better (so they say) because many [technically oriented folks] don't really want to do it!
If all you are after is $$$ then there are plenty of bad jobs that pay well because they are known to be bad. The trick is matching your skills and expectations to the customer's (employer's) needs.
Look for the wave to ride, not the wave you've just missed.
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there are plenty of great jobs that pay sh*t loads of money too. Lets not equate $$$ with only bad jobs. 
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True. And bad jobs that pay badly! (truth tables are fun..)
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Some places value skills that never age and you'll be fine if you have those skills. Other places value skills tied to particular products, and you'll have to retrain every few years.
If your skills are mostly tied to a particular application then, sure, you'll be coining it for a few years until it gets superceded by some other application, at which point you will have to retrain. This is the "treadmill" that most people refer to; you'll be on the relearning treadmill all your life if you specialise in some vendor-supplied proprietary tech-stack.
If you *are* going to specialise in some particular application or program, choose something that has obvious staying power (Linux kernel dev, for example, rather than Sage Accounting dev).
VB developers were the most in-demand, until VB was displaced, then they had to retrain. Win32 developers were high in demand, until C# allowed non-Win32 specialists to write Windows applications.
Being tied to a particular proprietary tech-stack makes you vulnerable. You'll know you're in this position when interviewers ask you questions about a particular product.
A question like "What are the callbacks needed to make a service on Windows?" is clearly product-oriented, while "How would you write a service provider for services over TCP" is clearly not.
Windows and Windows Services is clearly a product. Service provisioning and the TCP stack is clearly not. Knowledge of the former becomes less useful over time. Knowledge of the latter has gotten *more* useful over time.
Coincidentally, I'm 45, and in the middle of interviewing with Amazon. The questions are all based around algorithms and data structures, and I'm doing quite well so far. My compatriot (22 years dveloper on various Windows applications) who also applied didn't make it past the first interview. He is still looking for a job where his experience (native development on Windows) matters. He is probably going to have to accept a Game-Dev position if he wants to move at all.
One year of non-vendor related knowledge beats out 22 years of vendor-specific knowledge.
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How much you get paid is based on what it would cost to find someone else to do the job as well.
Supply and demand. Not just an economic theory, it's a Law.
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First, I only work because it affords me 2 Luxuries I've grown Accustomed to:
1) Living Indoors
2) Food
So, given that. Yeah, you either manage teams, or manage more people. You slowly become a lead.
The real question is "Are you chasing $$$ or is it a career/lifestyle?" As I am over 50, I am
at the point where I don't have to do most of the programming, and I am happy for that. I would rather design the system at a higher level, and push the developers to grow!
Honestly, I am learning PostgreSQL right now. It's been a lot of fun. But I am mentally SHOT at the end of the day UNLIKE when I was 20-30 years younger. My raw CPU power is lower.
So, capitalism works best when EVERYONE is seeking their own values... Find what you value, and go for it. In the end, WEALTH comes from starting your own business, and hiring others. Otherwise, you get a salary, and you MIGHT get some stock options (I've had 3 sets effectively expire worthless).
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It's not an obstacle, other than for yourself. The simple truth is you will eventually rise to a level of compensation commensurate with your skills and experience and the local job market. In my case, I hit the peak salary for my area over 20 years ago.
Over time you find that there are intangible compensations that come with age and experience. I don't have people looking over my shoulder. If I have to report a problem or a delay in completing a task, I don't get yelled at over it. My supervision (who is 20 years younger than me) trusts me to be honest, which I am.
Actually, that's important. With age and experience, you worry less about consequences and feel far more confident in being forthright and honest. When I was younger and a project was running behind or an idea wasn't working out, I felt intimidated and fearful about going to my boss and explaining. Now, if something is a bad idea and won't end well, I say so. If I have a better idea, I'll express it. I give reasonable schedules, most of which I meet pretty well. When I'm not meeting a schedule, I tell my boss as soon as I realize it so he can plan accordingly.
Fortunately my boss and his predecessor both viewed a large part of their job as herding cats insulating their team from the worst ravages of the Forces of Evil sales & marketing. The more accurate information I give him, the better he can do this part of his job.
Software Zen: delete this;
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I'll be 66 in July, currently a systems designer. Other than the four months of COVID shutdown I have not been out of work - other than taking time off for travel - since I
got out of school in the mid 1980s.
There is no real "obstacle" IF you have kept your skills up (there is not much call for FORTRAN programmers). AND IF your are willing to work (there is always a place for
do-nothing managers but they are never hired as such). AND IF you like what you do (being
miserable at work because you don't like what you do is just plain dumb).
Do not let someone sell you on this idea "it ends at 40". Maybe it did for them, maybe they
should have been selling insurance from the beginning not doing IT.
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Completely agree!
I'm also in my 60's and the only time I couldn't get work was really early in my career during a massive unemployment crisis (if you have heard the UB40 song "One in Ten", I was one of the one in ten!)
In fact, just after I turned 40 I sought out a new job, in a skill set I was completely ignorant of, for much higher pay and a much nicer company car.
Within 3 years I had doubled my income from my previous job.
So I overcame the (non-existent) problem through hard work, picking up new skills all the time and generally making myself useful and not resting on my laurels
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