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These happen once in a while - do you agree that the OP should be able to fix their own post's location (even if limited to Lounge->Soapbox) ? I put in bugs and suggestion - there could be good reasons it's not available even with the limited scope.
I could delete the thread but it's remained pretty civil, so far; also, there are enough posts that I don't want to blow them away if there's an option.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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"Quote: And all those taxes don't even give you free healthcare or education Big Grin | 
"
Sander you tend to have some wit about you, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and I'm hoping you are being sarcastic. I'll grant you intelligence so please identify free healthcare or education ANYWHERE on this planet.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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That's the nicest "I disagree" I've ever seen 
So let's start off by saying they're never free because you pay taxes, which pays (part of) your school or medical bill.
That said, when you look at what these things cost after taxes, the USA is one the most expensive "developed" countries by far.
When looking at Here's what college costs in 28 countries around the world - INSIDER[^] you can see that college is free in Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Norway, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden and Turkey.
In the Netherlands you get money from the government to pay for tuition and housing and on top of that college is heavily funded.
I'm not sure how it is now, but when I went to college the money you got was gifted if you finished in four or five years.
This used to be different, but we got some people who went to college for a long time, like ten years, and kept getting all those benefits.
According to that list, the average tuition per year is $2.420 in the Netherlands, which sounds about right (I can't really say if that's incl. or excl. the money students get from the government).
Personally, I paid around €1.600 in tuition and I had to pay for books, but I got a good €90 a month (which is low because I lived at home and my parents had a decent salary, my girlfriend at the time got over €400).
Even the USA's arch nemesis, Mexico, does very well with only $527 a year.
Compare that to the USA, $8.202 a year, which nets 14% of students a student debt of $50.000 or higher.
I don't know of any countries that have free healthcare, but I do know that when I get cancer I won't have to worry about the costs.
That's not what most Americans can say, or so I've heard: How does health spending in the U.S. compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker[^].
Healthcare in the USA is almost twice as expensive as in Europe, but not better nor used more frequently.
Look up other lists and they'll show comparative figures.
The catch, because there's always a catch, is that I ALWAYS pay for healthcare even if I don't use it.
That's because health insurance is mandatory and it costs me around €70 a month, which is pretty cheap (I have the highest own risk, which means I pay €800 when I need treatment, instead of €350, which is the lowest own risk).
I'm also not insured for everything, like psychiatric help, so if I ever need a psychiatrist, the bills could still add up, although not as much as in the USA.
I believe insurance is not mandatory in the USA, but even the most basic insurance is a multitude of what we pay in Europe.
So what I probably meant to say was "All those taxes and you're still crippled by student or healthcare debt "
At least you can still buy a gun to end it all if such a bill ever presents itself.
Which is part sarcasm and, as the numbers show, part truth.
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Ha, okay, I have arguments with people all the time about "free" stuff from the government, then I pay my taxes. Like I said, I doubted you really meant free.
Addressing the college cost topic, it was my understanding that in Europe college was "free" as long as you could qualify. Not every Tom, Dick, or Harriet gets to go to college - true or false? What I've been told is that some are directed to trade schools.
Let me know on my question. As with any comparison, apples to apples. I think the education (and the healthcare) systems are so sufficiently different that making comparisons on cost basis alone is dubious.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Not everyone can get into University over here, at least in the Netherlands.
After primary school people go to secondary school where students are divided by smartness (or willingness to learn).
There's basically three levels (where the lowest level has another subdivision) which take a total of four, five or six years to complete (from lowest to highest level).
Depending on your level on secondary school you go to University (highest level), high school* (mid level), or a secondary vocational education (I'd say lowest level, but these guys do things I can't do, like fix my car or my house).
It is possible to climb up, of course, but you'll have to do an extra year and often some exam before getting in.
Still, plenty of people do that.
University isn't some elitist institution.
* Our high school isn't the same as yours, which is our secondary school.
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I think there-in lies the problem. The general conception over here is that without a "college" education, there is no way to survive. I am certain the guy that pumps my septic tank makes more money than I do (as a business), and he has far less stress. Everyone is always happy to see him 
So the system over there is self regulating to an extent. In the US, about the only thing you need to get into college is money. The grade inflation in our high schools (ages 14-18) is out of control and the rot has spread into the college system. So, in effect, the US does have somewhat of a "free" education system - free money that you'll probably never pay back, but there are no restrictions as to who gets it. As a result, you have people borrowing 100K for a degree that will never pay them back.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Quote: The tax man's taken all my dough
And left me in my stately home
Lazing on a sunny afternoon
And I can't sail my yacht
He's taken everything I got
All I've got's this sunny afternoon
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Quote: Taxman
The Beatles
Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Don't ask me what I want it for
(Ah ah, Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more
(Ah ah, Mr. Heath)
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Now my advice for those who die (taxman!)
Declare the pennies on your eyes (taxman!)
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me (taxman!)
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Good one
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So what's it with you and these quotes lately?
Have you taken up poetry as a hobby?
My first thought was Taxman by The Beatles too
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I know, I know, it's tiring,
time for some firing,
this so-called poet,
should grow up !
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I'm not sure what you're saying, but it sounds like your brain is decaying.
You think you're a poet, perhaps you should slow it.
It's pretty annoying and I know you know it 
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Stop buying plastic crap from China.
At least this tax is voluntary.
Green taxes on energy to support the GW scam are enforced by law.
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I avoid buying from China not even on political ground but because it's too much a gamble. As for food, I won't eat anything from a country who's regulations are so weak they even poisoned their own infants. And shipped poison pet food to US, and radio-active sheet-rock, and HDD's that are DOA, and alkaline batteries, with 5-10 years before 'expiration' leaking while sitting in a drawer having never been used and . . . on and on . . . also, I avoid Walmart, which has an office and outright sets up manufacturing in China to increase the unsavory flood.
A nice measure would be, and I've sent such a request to various online vendors, is to include in the item description where it was manufactured (sometimes the Ships-From country filters help).
So - my buying their crap has not been been a problem for some time - unfortunately, my personal=safety based boycott isn't 100% enforceable. But, I will shop around and even pay more, although long term, I'm really paying less.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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If you think President Trump's tariffs are bad for your pocket, wait and see what (notional) Presidents Warren, Biden, or Sanders will do!
:evil grin:
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Too keep the reply lounge-safe, I'll stick to this:
The only real difference I found in my taxes, depending upon the party, is which one does it to my face and which one hides it and pretends they're tax heroes.
Interesting food for thought: with the 'big tax cut' (which would have increased my taxes if my mortgage wasn't paid off), there is a need for a new revenue stream to fill in the gaps created by the cut . . . and what better way to raise taxes than indirectly, via tariffs (sort of a VAT without a vote). Recessive tax rates - the sweet sound of more wealth to those already wealthy - and no work is involved.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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which means we don't have a tax problem, we have a spending problem... as any married man can attest too.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Hey, keep me out of this!
I'm all for me as president (for life) though
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What is this "middle class" of which you speak?
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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An endangered species without any protection.
They work for a living, buy food with money they earn; try to enjoy some recreation. Unlike the wealthy they have no advocates. Unlike the self-proclaimed oppressed, they have no advocates. They work so they can't get Medicaid - and they don't earn enough to pay for medical insurance. If they have legal problems they must spend much of their earnings on legal council because Legal Aid and other such organizations won't give them the time of day (except when they want donations) - neither have they enough money to buy their way out of trouble, either.
Ultimately, they're the ones who pay for everything for everyone else.
Other dictionary definitions that should exist for the middle class:
Economic Cannon Fodder
Working Class Lemmings
&etc.
(feeling a bit cynical today).
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Unlike the self-proclaimed oppressed, they have no advocates
I've heard many a politician stump on looking out for the middle class.
What i don't hear from them is concern over the working poor, a steadily growing class in this neoliberal economy under late-stage capitalism.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the codewitch wrote: I've heard many a politician stump on looking out for the middle class.
Until after the elections. Basicly the same for all the idiots, past and present.honey the codewitch wrote: What i don't hear from them is concern over the working poor,
That class growing with the infusion of immigrants from the middle class.
Personally, I think it's a disgrace that a person in the USA can work full-time job and not have enough money to get by. And should they dare have a family? !
Another observation, one which I made to my kids, right as they were finishing high-school and shopping for college: "You can work hard now, or you can work hard the rest of your life". In general, the lowest pay is reserved for the hardest jobs.
On the other hand - I have seen and heard first hand account (via wife, a teacher) how poor the attendance is where she teaches and how little respect the students have for school and education. There's a result of peer pressure? Family/culture? Maybe a society that will give them what they need if they don't work for it themselves - a honeypot to keep them in lower class or a palliative to avoid an increase in crime?
Plenty of pandering going around. My (partial) solution? No one should starve or be cold; as a society we should supply the necessities of life where needed - social safety nets are for all of us. HOWEVER, if you want nice things then, well, you'll need money and that's for those who work. Protection and motivations need to be coordinated. Is it cruel, or, is not doing it what's really cruel?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I don't think that's unfair. In fact, I'd say it's biblical, in the best sense of that.
I think lack of respect for the profession of teaching starts at the top - not with the kids. Kids react.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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face palm. "Quote: No one should starve or be cold; as a society we should supply the necessities of life where needed - social safety nets are for all of us.
"
are you elephanting kidding me? Try that with your children, they'll never elephanting move out. Are you drunk? Define the necessities of life? You guys boggle my mind. There is nothing like a little "sh*t this sucks, I need to do something" to get someone motivated.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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