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Desktop developer myself, I find web developers kinda smug every now and then. I oftentimes found interesting-looking articles about the state of development or similar generic terms, got incredibly dumbfounded by the author describing immature and/or always-moving frameworks and after a while, he mentions JavaScript/web. Because of course the author didn't bother mentioning web programming anywhere because for some arrogant reason, "development" is synonymous with "web development".
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Web, Gui's, database, HA. Try being an embedded realtime firmware engineer
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Quote: I know I'm a dinosaur but....
But I think we all are here. Look at the prehistoric looks of CP and it just makes you feel at home.
Slow Eddie wrote: It does seem to be primarily aimed at, and populated by, web application developers. 
I think the lounge itself is very general purpose, if you think about it, it's driven by us. And a lot of us are MS Stack and a lot of us moved from desktop to web.
The daily news I do agree, but given that there is hardly anything "new" about Desktop development, I believe it makes sense.
Having that said, there is plenty of content on desktop development. I wrote a few articles many years ago here and they are about desktop development. But, if you are looking for simple and active forums for questions and answers focused on desktop development you can see MSDN: Msdn forums - Windows Forms
This one in particular is for Windows Forms but you can find others like MFC, WPF, UWP as well.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Slow Eddie wrote: It does seem to be primarily aimed at, and populated by, web application developers.
Actually, if you look at the results of this recent survey, it would appear that web devs are actually outnumbered here by "Business/Office" developers. (Although, I suppose, that does not necessarily imply Desktop applications.)
That's certainly the boat I'm floating these days, anyways.
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Fortunately, web development is moving away from stateless HTML/CSS/JavaScript architecture to webassembly. For MS-oriented developers, that means C# and Blazor, no JavaScript needed (it can be used, but that only makes sense in very narrow edge cases).
I have noticed with web developers I worked with (i.e. anecdotal) when moving to Xamarin and Blazor, that it was hard for them (I don't know if that is a global issue) to move from the stateless mindset of HTML/CSS/JavaScript to the stateful mindset desktop developers innately understand. That and really understanding things like OOA/OOP and dependency injection. The web programmers I have worked with are mostly bright, sharp people who should have no problem making the shift intellectually, but it is hard to give up the old, comfortable ways.
All that to say that in time, web developers may start to look and sound more like desktop developers.
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I do both, but I prefer web to installed apps because (a) updates do not require every user to reinstall/upgrade the app, and (b) with AJAX and DOM manipulation, web apps can behave like standalone apps 95% of the time.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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I feel the same way, but recently I've had to stray to the dark side for work. I started my career building print drivers in DOS for custom applications. When Windows came along, I was stoked and (for the most part) didn't look back.
But with every revision of platforms, I'm finding myself spending more and more time looking up how to do things, because the ecosystems keep getting bigger and bigger with more and more options to sort through. back in the day all you needed was a couple of good books and you were off to the races, now it feels like I need 50 browser windows open at any given time to find what I need.
It's not too bad, but in my day-to-day were I work, I'll need to switch from embedded, to desktop, to web to mobile apps, that's way too much to keep in your head at any given time, or even the language switching: Like, how to define a predefined array again in this language? it's stupid stuff slowing me down, because of all the minor differences.
I do miss the days of just knowing the language and platform inside and out, getting the best performance, and quick turnaround.
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Unlike the rest of you, I truly am a dinosaur, in the process of becoming extinct. I got tired of spending my evenings and weekends learning a new language and framework every couple of years, and transitioned into testing. Sometimes, I miss the fun of coding floating point routines in assembly because the C code would not fit in our devices. I don't miss learning that half of our Java framework's routines did not actually work. But mostly, I enjoy my evenings with my wife at the end of a testing day. I am looking forward to retirement in a few months, and maybe I'll start programming for fun again.
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The only thing I really miss about "real programming" is that this web stuff is stateless. Get used to the appropriate songs and dances to transmit data between client and server took a while. When desperate enough to use a global, it turns out be cross between "applications" (i.e., sessions) unless one goes out of their way to stop it - and often don't go away unless deliberately destroyed or the browser is closed.
But, one gets used to four or five languages on a page.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Life is a program programmed by GOD...
ciao
VM
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Hi All,
The 'Widget' I am testing is reliant on a tower of Babel software, which in turn is generated from a mixture of Government Documentation which is particularly unreadable. It is for a safety critical system. Me being me goes into tester mode, picking up all things I can. There is an issue which is known to slow down the device. This can lead to interesting results such as LEDs for Channel 1 & 2 being shown on LEDs 3 & 4 on the device taking a longish time to set. It can be easy as I just have shown the software lead an non-issue due to the time delay and the LED's 3 & 4 switching times, I know I am being too picky but as I said 'Safety Critical'... ...am I an idiot for getting out of hand?
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just remember there's:
#1 safety, as in protection from harm, and
#2 safety as in protection from being sued.
90% of the time for the management [following up on advice from the legals/compliance], you know bottom line and so on, #2 matters more - ass covered. #1 is just a byproduct.
think about it, how does a sign (or picture for multi-language) saying "watch your step" actually enhance safety? sure, most people will see it and take care, so yes, the safety (#1) is improved (not 100%) but only as a byproduct that sign ensures safety #2 is 100% covered - you fall, too bad, no case.
yeah the safety LEDs do light up, sure not instant but it's there and meets req. up to the operator to ensure those LED's stay off before proceeding.
and that's also why there's some pretty stupid signs, indicators, sirens etc out there - what's a few dollars in parts/printing compared to the potential lawsuits from not having them.
warning: do not operate the microwave if the door is not fully closed.
- you'd have to bypass/have broken a couple or more safety switches to manage that feat, cold happen in an old unit, and so just in case, despite the "safey" switches, that warning saves potentially millions ... of dollars., and maybe (but far far less likely) some old lady's liver.
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Compared to some systems I have worked on this is not too safety critical, translation the previous high integrity stuff I have worked on has been Biohazard safety for Porton Down (cue questions like 'Could the Stand really happen?') and Radar systems for air traffic control. That background makes me question everything that I can, and somethings I can't... The worst I have seen with Microwaves is one that works with a hole in the door! 
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lopatir wrote: you fall, too bad, no case.
Unless you trip over the sign 
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you raise a good point. maybe the system should be considered "lawsuit critical"
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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lopatir wrote: and that's also why there's some pretty stupid signs, indicators, sirens etc out there - what's a few dollars in parts/printing compared to the potential lawsuits from not having them.
Plus some typos and things get quite amusing. According to the instructions of a well known manufacturer of model kits, some decals on a 1967 Vietnam Huey should read 'use XXXX viation fuel" or "fuel dick drain". They will most probably not get dragged to court over that.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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yeah, tough taking overseas companies to court.
I'm sure though (to sell overseas) they will still have to include lots of safety instructions too, such as: "baby not eating the small piece they can choking onto your hazard."
back in the days before internet my friends and I requested some part/computer catalogs from Asia (Taiwan was by far the best), laughed so damn hard it really did bring tears to your eyes.
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Will Richmond be watching the lights?
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No, it's embedded...also are we talking Richmond USA or Richmond UK (if its the UK not yet!)
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glennPattonWork wrote: Richmond USA
and which Richmond at that? Richmond Indiana is about 50 miles from me.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Don't let the pointy hairs make you second guess your gut when it comes to safety. Always go with your gut. My $0.02
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Too true, I have stood my ground and endured flak for it. Turns out the issue is one that could have lead to deaths in the past, I feel I have to a little more cowboy in checking!
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glennPattonWork wrote:
m I an idiot for getting out of hand?
What you do with your hand in private is none of my interest.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr.PhD P. E.
Comport Computing
Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Fair enough.  if you read it out of contex...
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