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I know that talent throws all assumptions out the window  . I read an article some years back about college degree return on investment. It put degrees from MIT and CalTech at the top. The school's are the two costliest to attend but they also provide a much higher starting pay.
This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals.
I wish I could still find that article.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Foothill wrote: This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals.
Definitely. Circumstances also play a big role. You gotta be where the demand is.
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dandy72 wrote: how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place
My degree cost me £0 
As for the thread in general, these types of threads always elicit the same two reactions;
"I didn't get a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know without a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known with a degree is rubbish."
"I have a degree and I'm amazing. Everyone I know with a degree is amazing too, and and everyone I've known without a degree is rubbish."
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Good think I (tried to) remain neutral in my initial response. 
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I think it largely depends on your line of work. If you do nothing but making webpages talk to some database or another then I don't see why a degree should be a requirement. There are many other areas of software where a wide breadth of knowledge just isn't required and, to me, the means a degree really isn't necessary. On the other hand, I work in the automation business where the bottom line is controlling machines that do actual work. There is a very large number of different areas of science that I have had to utilize over the years. Several times they were areas I had never studied so I had to get a "crash course" in them. In my case, I find that out of my college education there is only about 10% or less that I haven't used at one time or another. This is exactly the opposite of what I hear from most people. In my opinion, to do what I do a degree definitely IS required. In general software engineering, not so much.
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Well, I started my working life with an apprenticeship (my choice). Set me up in a far more practical way than a degree (which I took later) and I got paid whilst I was doing it! I don't think they have those sorts of apprenticeships any more (which included one year at college learning theory and history). If it all went tits up, I could go back and do that work and, sometimes, I miss it.
But I agree, not everyone is suited to going to university and it shouldn't be the default path - a path where you end up with a piece of paper and a debt mountain. The only way to differentiate yourself is to go on and take a masters or phd. My nephew just got his masters and is now working in a bar!)
A degree, of itself, does not mean you're smart. Or employable.
Keep your friends close. Keep Kill your enemies closer.
The End
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100% yes at least with STEM careers. Nearly every HR company filters on degree first so without one you won't even get eyes on your resume/CV. You're up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants and they can't read every application. Even if you get through, you're at an enormous disadvantage. Consider that companies don't necessarily want "the best." They want the safest choice that can get the job done. Degree = safety (to some extent). No degree = risk.
As much as I despise this system, that's how it is. I've gotten to about eight final interviews over the past 2-ish years, some for senior positions, and when I don't get a call I always reach out to whoever my HR contact was to ask "What could have strengthened my candidacy in the final steps of the process?" The couple responses I've gotten were a degree. Which is why I'm currently finishing my degree so I can land a decent job.
As far as apprenticeship vs degree, I like the middle-ground. I have a friend that is a lineman (works on power lines, transformers, etc). The way they do it is basically take a 4-year degree, strip out all the unrelated classes, then you do both schooling and an apprenticeship for those years. I believe the first year is just schooling but apprentices also get paid a fair wage (it isn't free labor like many CS/SE internships). After the schooling, you'll still be an apprentice until your mentor signs off that you're ready to go at it on your own.
Side Note: Nearly all those interviews I've landed the company used a test project to filter candidates which is why I imagine I made it into the process without a degree. Many companies don't bother doing this. Also I can only speak to the US.
modified 22-Oct-18 12:50pm.
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Jon McKee wrote: 100% yes at least with STEM careers. Nearly every HR company filters on degree first so without one you won't even get eyes on your resume/CV. You're up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants and they can't read every application. Even if you get through, you're at an enormous disadvantage. Consider that companies don't necessarily want "the best." They want the safest choice that can get the job done. Degree = safety (to some extent). No degree = risk.
As an acquaintance of mine put it ~15 years ago, the Bachelors Degree has become the modern white collar union card. It's not a necessary or sufficient condition to prove you're qualified to do a job any more than Grandpa's plumbers union card ever was; but without a BS/BA you'll be locked out of a very large fraction of today's jobs just like he wouldn't be allowed on most large construction sites without his card.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Forogar wrote: Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines.
The old ways are the best ways. You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts, or the world otherwise falls into anarchy. The vehicles you see in Mad Max don't fix themselves, after all. Abandon this knowledge at your own peril.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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So, you know how to change a wagon wheel do ya?
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Actually, I do. That's part of the benefit of spending part of your childhood on a working farm.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Damn it to hell John Wayne slayer!!!
I was trying to make a point and you completely ruined it with your vast life experience.
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I'm old. I know stuff.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I'm old. I know stuff.
Snaffled to sig!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: You still need to know how a carburetor works for when the zombie apocalypse starts
Argument for argument's sake:
Would that knowledge be useful with your fuel-injected Mustang? Or would you immediately have to trash that and retrofit it with a carburetor for some reason?
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You need to keep up a little better. My Mustang hasn't been fuel-injected since 2014. It's running dual carbs on a 671 blower.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: You need to keep up a little better.
I clearly do. I haven't been following up all that closely TBH, other than looking (or rather, listening) to a couple of videos you had posted, and knowing it's pretty much a complete rebuild at this point.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: It's running dual carbs on a 671 blower.
Sweet! So, not exactly something you can get directly from Ford.
I take it Texas doesn't have the sissy emissions test requirements we have in Canada? Or that the law provides exemptions for hotrods?
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Forogar wrote: Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time
Yes! I had the opportunity to work with youngsters (20-25 years younger than me, and I'm from 1972), who had only a bunch of courses...
Even they are the best quality, they lack the solid foundation that a good degree gives you. And that lack of foundation makes the bad dengourous and the good frustrated (first hand experience wit them)...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
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I've worked with folks who had 15-20 years experience, yet lacked a basic understanding of how a database works, nor understood why coding for efficient execution matters when you have 100,000 concurrent users.
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Good post! IMHO a PhD is for people whose career path is academia and may actually hurt an applicant whose career path is only the public sector. A problem I have found in my career is that having more education and experience than management can create a rough relationship, because management does not want someone that can do their job or is superior to them. An internship, BS, and a few certs should be enough to get in the door for a programming career. And then if you want the MS or more, let the employer pay for it. I would think that getting in the door early is better than spending many years and monies on academia, but a proper cost benefit analysis on career path and ambitions should be considered before making judgements and decisions.
If I were younger and still climbing the corporate ladder, I'd still recommend a MS. My employer paid for around half of it and my half paid for itself very quickly. The problem solving skills I obtained has helped out in my life and should continue throughout.
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I would say it depends on what you want to do with your working life. If only making money is your goal, getting a high level degrees may not worth it. I would recommend at least bachelor's degree.
For 30+ years, I've worked with developers with at least completed a Data Structure course and basic Database Design Principle(dev-A) and developers whom are self tough (dev-B). Provided that both groups are actively practicing their skills.
When developing Line of Business (LOB) application where the tools and requirements are well defined, either group can deliver successfully. It is only when the goal is gray and the tools is not readily available that requirements is not clear where some R&D is needed, then the group dev-A really can come through (in fact the higher the education, the better).
With a degree without practicing is worst that self tough when comes to coding. At least the self tough knows how to code. I have a brother who had a master degree in Software Engineering but can't write a simple hello world program.
If you ever plan to work for government in any research facility, a degree is a must have, the higher the more value it is.
modified 22-Oct-18 13:39pm.
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I agree with all your points and have experienced almost the same scenarios.
FYI: Just to help out your otherwise excellent English, I assume that by "self tough" you meant "self-taught".
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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In my humble opinion, the degree is a certification that you know the basics and it gets your foot in the door.
The real learning starts when you get into a shop and start working with people who have been doing it for years. This is where you learn how the development work is really done and the processes used, akin to an apprenticeship.
I admit, I'm an entirely self-taught developer with no degree.
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Forogar wrote: Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money
No.
Forogar wrote: or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
Yes.
And that goes for just about every career choice. I'm still debating whether it's a good thing for quacks doctors to have degrees.
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Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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Forogar wrote: Useless or just Obsolete?
I'd like to think I'm both! 
I'm not sure about Masters or PhDs but good old BS degrees in Computer Science are well worth the time, money and effort. Is it perfect? No. Does it weed out all the idiots? No.
But before you throw out the baby with the bath water think of all the times your idiot neighbor said "Little Johnny is really good with computers*, he wants to get a job writing computer games!"
*Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
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