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dandy7214-Dec-17 10:59

dandy72

14-Dec-17 10:59

OriginalGriff wrote:
No "as bad as The Force Awakens".

What about "as bad as Phantom Menace"? Or is that bar too low? Unsure | :~

(and no, I haven't seen it myself...just saying what if...)

den2k8814-Dec-17 21:12

14-Dec-17 21:12

I watched it two days ago, a few hours after it was released... and without the horrible and almost unavoidable italian dub, to boot.

For me it's one of the best SW movies ever produced and one of the best movies ever produced at all - it has so many layers of reading that it's mind boggling, the characters are extremely well developed and actually manage to grow during the movie. The storytelling level is sky-high and the acting perfect.

I loved it... that's why I don't discuss it on the Internet. Too many a*****es, not enough patience.

GCS d-- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Munchies_Matt14-Dec-17 21:46

14-Dec-17 21:46

I hope so, I have found every star wars film since the first three dull, childish, thin, badly acted, and silly.

Has he really finally produced a sequel that is worthy of the title? I hope you arr right.

den2k8814-Dec-17 22:01

14-Dec-17 22:01

Munchies_Matt wrote:
three dull, childish, thin,

That's George Lucas for you. He actually wanted the first trilogy like the second but was constrained by money and technology.

Munchies_Matt wrote:
badly acted

Lucas again - he pushed (especially in Ep II) for a massive use of CGI without any kind of prop, so the actors were mostly staring at points on a 2D blue screen while acting. As Ian McKellen testified (in the making of The hobbit) that is destructive to the performance of even the most capable actors since there is no reaction from the other side... and Peter Jackson used a lot of physical stand-ins, which at least corrected the "character staring behind the person he's talking to" problem.

Sillyness was always a part of SW and in this movie it is welcome because it's extremely fast paced and very dramatic - things go spectacularly downhill and it's absolutely the darkest movie of the entire saga.

That being said, I enjoy Ep I because it's almost dreamlike (and I *love* Qui Gon Jinn), while Ep II was horrible (the acting, the "romance", the CGI, everything). Ep III is saved only by a majestic ending.

GCS d-- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Munchies_Matt14-Dec-17 22:09

14-Dec-17 22:09

Ep1 was probably the best of the three, if you can get over the ridiculous ja ja binks. But yeah, 2 and 3 sucked.

What I was really disappointed about was the complete lack of depth in, and simplistic treatment of, darth vaders descent into evil and madness. It is probably the single most important aspect of the entire story, and yet it was glossed over in a completely unconvincing and quite frankly wasteful way.

SO where does the last film places itself in time, is it after the first three or before them still?

den2k8814-Dec-17 22:17

14-Dec-17 22:17

Munchies_Matt wrote:
simplistic treatment of, darth vaders descent into evil and madness.

Well his descent into evil is basically Jedi Council fault since they were so full of themselves and their own political correctness that they failed to treat Anakin like a person - and conveniently threw their own ideals into the garbage bin. Add a lot of scheming and the very same fault Kylo Ren, his grandson, has... Vader is a Well-Intentioned Extremist[^] that starts following a mad man and doesn't eralize the depth of what he did until he sees his own son tortured and almost killed (sounds like the end of Romeo and Juliet).

Munchies_Matt wrote:
the ridiculous ja ja binks

Ridiculous but useful to explain the PoV of Qui Gon Jinn... which is extremely important. For 800 years Yoda believed in the Universal Force and looked ahead in the future and far and wide in the Galaxy while Qui Gon lives "in the here and now". Guess what Yoda teaches Luke in Ep V, after his greatest failure and exile? Precisely what Qui Gon believed... also, Qui Gon taught Yoda how to become a Force Ghost. So for me Jar Jar is condoned... even if insufferable.

Munchies_Matt wrote:
SO where does the last film places itself in time, is it after the first three or before them still?

30 years later than Ep VI Smile | :)

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Munchies_Matt14-Dec-17 22:47

14-Dec-17 22:47

den2k88 wrote:
30 years later than Ep VI

About the same as Harrison Ford then! Smile | :)

But the descent of darth vader into evil was still trite. The lack of recognition of his power by the council would not drive an inherently good person to evil. It needed more. It needed some real darkness to it, some real understanding of the human state. If Romeo and Juliet is similar, then it is similarly shallow.

den2k8814-Dec-17 22:57

14-Dec-17 22:57

Munchies_Matt wrote:
If Romeo and Juliet is similar, then it is similarly shallow.

Only the ending where the two families (Darth Vader) recognize the darkness and the error of their warfare (Vader's service under Palpatine) only when they see the corpses of their son and daughter (Luke dying at the hand of the Emperor).

Munchies_Matt wrote:
The lack of recognition of his power by the council would not drive an inherently good person to evil.

He wasn't inherently good - he was vindicative, as he salughtered the Tusken raiders from the first to last, children included, after their rape of his mother. He became "evil" for fear of seeing his wife and kids die during childbirth (thank you very much, Force visions) and due to years of endless warfare (Clone Wars) that left him mentally exhausted and pushed by the same "pacifist" council to increasing violent acts of war for "the greater good".

Take a person, make him commit atrocities, add disillusion in those who bring forth his ideals, add a deep fear for his loved ones and some frustration for flavor... no wonder he wants to destroy or conquer everything.

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Munchies_Matt14-Dec-17 23:44

14-Dec-17 23:44

den2k88 wrote:
He wasn't inherently good - he was vindicative, as he salughtered the Tusken raiders from the first to last, children included, after their rape of his mother.

I guess I missed that. Which film was that in?

Perhaps it was just badly acted then, the process of his descent into evil was unconvincing for me.

den2k8814-Dec-17 23:48

14-Dec-17 23:48

Munchies_Matt wrote:
I guess I missed that. Which film was that in?

Attack of the Clones. The worst written worst acted piece of... movie... ever.

And Hayden Christensen could be anything he wanted to be. Why did he choose to be an actor, I will never understand. Terrible.

GCS d-- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Munchies_Matt15-Dec-17 0:25

15-Dec-17 0:25

den2k88 wrote:
And Hayden Christensen could be anything he wanted to be. Why did he choose to be an actor, I will never understand. Terrible.

This is probably the root cause of it. Totally unconvincing.

Johnny J.14-Dec-17 21:57

Johnny J.

14-Dec-17 21:57

It's not bad, but I had my hopes way up high because it seems to have gotten really good reviews.

Personally, I'm in the category of people who thinks "The Force Awakens" was a really good movie, and "The Last Jedi" is definitely worse in my opinion. It's running pretty much on reheated leftovers.

It also lacks a nasty villain - Kylo Ren is nothing more than a whining, spoiled brat.

One thing that really disturbs me is that apparently anybody can become a jedi nowadays without any training and without having any knowledge of what it means. Major plot fault imho.

But it has a lot of nice qualities as well. It's worth seeing.

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modified 15-Dec-17 4:02am.

den2k8814-Dec-17 22:06

14-Dec-17 22:06

Johnny J. wrote:
One thing that really disturbs me is that apparently anybody can become a jedi nowadays without any training and without having any knowledge of what it means.

It's always been like that, since Jedi are just a category of Force users and one of the less numerous due to theire obtusity.

Johnny J. wrote:
Kylo Ren is nothing more than a whining, spoiled brat.

Kylo Ren has good reasons for that AND he's a good villain precisely because of that: there's Kylo in any of us. Most of us don't have a trace of Vader or Palpatine inside, but Kylo... every time you feel underappreciated and tell "go flock yourself" anytime you justify yourself for not being your best self, anytime you envy someone or anytime you have a responsibility and think of misusing it for your own greed then you're being Kylo Ren.

He's not "the villain", he's gray. I can respect and like that.

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Johnny J.14-Dec-17 22:19

Johnny J.

14-Dec-17 22:19

den2k88 wrote:
It's always been like that, since Jedi are just a category of Force users and one of the less numerous due to theire obtusity.

I disagree - There is a lot more to the jedi than just the use of the force. They have always had to train with a master before becoming a jedi. It went wrong more often than not, apparently, but still.

But when Luke says in the end that the jedi are not gone despite the fact that he didn't train Rey at all, I feel like it's kinda like having to learn to code programs without any teacher, without any books, without Google and the internet - And without Griff to answer in Q&A - Impossible.

den2k8814-Dec-17 22:31

14-Dec-17 22:31

Remember the Force Ghosts. Obi Wan kept training Luke in the yeras between the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of the moon of Endor.

Also, the Force guides the Jedi and not viceversa - any Jedi that even thinks of controlling the Force is full of hubris, and possibly on the very first steps towards the descent in the Dark Side. Most of The Forxe is "follow your instincts" and many people throughout the Galaxy use the Force on a daily basis without training... and Maz Kanata. She's a Force sensitive which never trained with the Jedi. I won't even delve in the former EU (now Legends) and its sects of Force users, all of them descended from the Je'daii which hadn't even a distinction between Light and Dark side.

GCS d-- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X

Nicholas Marty15-Dec-17 3:18

Nicholas Marty

15-Dec-17 3:18

Until now. I didn't even know that there was a new star wars movie Blush | :O