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You would know being full of it...
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It's based upon life-style. I'm a minimalist and Mrs. wife is close enough. I've a pension that I could just scrape buy on right now - and when I retire, Social security will, between the two of us, allow some reasonable comfort. We buy small cars and keep them until they're essentially "used up" - not worth keeping. Usually, ten years or more.
On the other side, more directly addressing your question, we can get by on what we have saved until that '90' mentioned elsewhere in the tread, without the pensions & Social Security - not accounting for inflation.
BUT - that's in no small part due to our life-style; both buying what we needs and reasonably, what we want, and saving the remainder. Almost all of our spending is via Visa/Master Card. All bills paid in full when received. The rule, which I taught my children: don't buy on credit anything you don't have the money for on hand. (Exception would be a primary dwelling).
Those who can't buy anything without increasing their debt. Some, I will say, were pushed into bad circumstances. Mostly, however, it's unregulated self indulgence. I don't feel sympathy for them.
So - a subjective and definitive answer: If you can put enough away to cover your living expenses for as long as necessary (should you become unemployed) - you're there. Living without financial fear. Difficult, in part, because getting there means learning to tell yourself "No", both in the savings, and, if necessary, during the spending.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Those who can't buy anything without increasing their debt. Some, I will say, were pushed into bad circumstances. Mostly, however, it's unregulated self indulgence. I don't feel sympathy for them.
I'm mildly surprised you're able to get away with that level of markup. I thought the forum worked on an html whitelist to keep out abuse.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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The available HTML is rather limited. Normally, if I use text-shadow, it would not be as I just did (an experiment, actually), but to slightly bring-forward text. The list, not long ago, was cleared and reset (figuratively speaking) by ChrisM. Mainly, it's color and text decoration, bullet lists, a table. Except, as I had just done, they're good to enhance readability.
Abuse? I'd worry about links - yet they're essential. So I don't worry about them (here).
Now, on the other hand, if we could get rid of those smiley-faces . . .
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Now, on the other hand, if we could get rid of those smiley-faces . . .
Funny you should mention those...
PS CP's forum has a styling problem with tables that was introduced a year or so back and which hasn't been fixed yet. Maunder blamed it on a 3rd party when I reported the bug. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Actually, I buy most items in the U.S. with credit card, but they're paid in full when due. I do this because I receive 1% to 5% cash back. As far as loans, I never expect to take out a loan again.
Also, I don't keep a lot of cash on hand, but I don't have many bills. Any extra money, gets sent to the brokerage I use and it eventually gets invested; in fact 3 weeks ago I only had $600 USD in reserves, but all my bills for the month were paid for. So yes, I can drive a new MB by writing a check (in about a week), but I'll stick to buying 1 year old former rental cars and driving them for 7 years until I replace it with another.
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jgakenhe wrote: I do this because I receive 1% to 5% cash back.
It is somewhat tempting to do that. However, no wealthy person has ever claimed their wealth came from credit card rewards.  And studies have shown that people tend to spend about 18% more when paying with credit card vs. with cash because it hurts to pay with cash, even if you pay off your balance every month. You may not be like that but many are. Just something to think about.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: And studies have shown that people tend to spend about 18% more when paying with credit card vs. with cash because it hurts to pay with cash
 Can you provide a link or detailed explanation?
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain
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Dave Ramsey.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Dave Ramsey.
Never mind. 
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Never mind.
What does that mean? You don't like Dave Ramsey?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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His name was not an explanation to your claim about the "studies".
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain
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A simple google search shows that it was Dun and Bradstreet that did the study. 12-18%. I learned it from Dave Ramsey who is very reliable and trustworthy on financial matters.
I thought you knew who he was and didn't need it explained beyond that. My mistake.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: And studies have shown that people tend to spend about 18% more when paying with credit card
Assuming you're not talking about the enormous interest rate - but these studies tend to find what they're looking for.
That being said, I agree that people spend more easily when they don't have to actually count out the money. Buying some potato chips, or a 60" HDTV, are equally easy with plastic money. And then, of course, there's the debit card! I won't even own one.
As for the 1%-5%? A few hundred $US/year extra is OK for me - because I'm NOT one of those wealthy people to which you refer!
It all comes down to whether you consider that plastic specie to be a tool or a license.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: I agree that people spend more easily when they don't have to actually count out the money.
W∴ Balboos wrote: because I'm NOT one of those wealthy people to which you refer!
Most millionaires pay with cash. There's a good book written a while ago called "The Millionaire Next Door". You might be surprised to find out what most millionaires are like.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I was like that during my 20's, but now I'm much more responsible. I have a set amount that I plan to spend each month and I get great satisfaction when I achieve it; which is most months.
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jgakenhe wrote: I have a set amount that I plan to spend each month and I get great satisfaction when I achieve it;
 My satisfaction happens when I come in under budget.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: people tend to spend about 18%
It varies. I prefer using credit card. My ex-wife did best with checks followed by credit cards--give her cash and it would vanish as though it was magic.
I like my cash back credit cards.
RyanDev wrote: However, no wealthy person has ever claimed their wealth came from credit card rewards.
Yes and no. Several years ago, someone did a big study on this and found that for the most part, the wealthy are frugal and unassuming--you can't pick most of them out of a crowd. Thus, using things like cash back credit cards and coupons is exactly what they do--it's part of the overall package.
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Joe Woodbury wrote: Thus, using things like cash back credit cards and coupons is exactly what they do-
The studies I've seen show they use cash. No cards.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Like others have mentioned - early in my life / career I earned less and spent more (house, kids, etc...). Reserves were at a minimum.
Now I'm 50+ years old and totally debt free (no mortgage, no car loans, no revolving credit card debt, etc...) and reserves are building rapidly despite my lifestyle improving as well. My wife and I both drive new-ish vehicles, we take regular vacations, we're always making improvements around the house. Buying a new fridge is never a problem. If I lost my job, I can easily go 2-3 years without starving or becoming homeless.
P.S. While I could have chosen to buy a Mercedes with cash - I bought the Honda Accord (with cash) instead. 
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. ~ Mark Twain
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Mercedes are quite expensive where I live, they're considered a luxury. I cannot buy a Merc, but I can buy a decent sedan paid in cash, but I wouldn't. I own my third car now (a VW Jetta) and all three are pre-owned cars bought in cash. I bought a large fridge a couple of months ago and that too paid in cash. I have enough savings to spend a year comfortably without a job.
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Central Europe -> 20.000 euro.
+10.000 if you have a SO.
+10.000 per kid.
So around 40k euro (47k USD) total, typically.
I find this to be the normal buffer in Europe.
Some variations between EU members exist, but everyone in my extended family (~150 people) has at least 10k in the bank.
All middle class, about 50% blue collar 50% white collar.
Sometimes it bothers me that having debt is somewhat normal in the US.
It irks me how the term "middle class" can apply to people with debt.
We just call people with no money poor.
No offence implied; the worth of a person does not correlate with money in the bank.
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In my country (Norway), authorities think people should own their own homes, so spending your money on a reasonable - I am not saying 'luxurious' - home is a much better idea than piling up bank notes.
Right now, I have got a huge pile of bank notes, but within a year, I will spend it on my house, with two main goals: Upgrade it to 'Universal Access' standard, such as making sure that I can continue living there even if I end up in a wheelchair or loose my eyesight when I get old.
Second, I want to make it cheap to run the house. The day that I retire, I would like to spend my pension on pleasures, not on keeping the house warm. Even though energy (electricity in particular) is cheap in this country (in the range of 0.08 to 0.10 USD per kWh), a typical detached house requires 20-30.000 kWh/year, most of it for heating. Installing solar heat collectors, heat pump, improving insulation etc. can reduce the heating costs to a third.
Sure enough: The investments will be so large that they are not recovered until my grandchildren takes over the house. But I've got the money now: If I don't invest them in my house, I certainly will not be saving them to pay my power bills when I retire; I'd be left with high heating costs and less comfort.
Investing your money in your house is quite common here. If you really need to buy a Mercedes but haven't go all the money required, your bank will probably accept your house as a collateral for the loan to buy that car. (Actually, that is quite common here - the interest rate is much lower for a house loan than for a plain car loan.)
Advisors around here say that you should strive for maintaining a buffer the size of one month of income - by the end of the month, of course. So the day after payday, you have two months of income in you account (or pile of banknotes). Not very many people have that, though. They rather invest their surplus money in their house. The only reason for not doing that is if you consider your house to be perfect; there is nothing money can do to make it more valuable (to yourself, and/or if you plan on selling it some day).
I bought my house more than 30 years ago, when interest rates were in the 11-14% range. So I learned to pay back my loan as quickly as possible. I still do. A pile of money is worth nothing - the valuable stuff is what you can buy for the money. So go out and get yourself some valuable stuff!
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Is geothermal a viable option? In Ohio/US it looks like the breakeven point is reached relatively quickly, and it can also be used for cooling if you need it.
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