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In another small, hands-on startup? Then yes, a larger company, deffinitely not.
I think a purely managerial role would drive me mad as well! I wouldn't mind a 50/50 split, I quite like some planning & conceptual work. The industry seems quite binary on this sort of thing though.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: I tried being a manager once and hated every minute of it
Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about it?
Jeremy Falcon
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Well to start with I am not a natural administrator or man-manager, so I found that part of the job difficult, and in many ways tedious. I did not like trying to implement corporate policies which I felt were unfair on certain people. Generally I found almost no aspect of the role that gave me a feeling that I was doing something useful. So as soon as an opportunity came up to get back to a purely technical role I took it, and spent my last years getting paid for doing something I enjoyed, and left the management to people more suited to the job.
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Totally understand man. Was just curious. Inquiring minds want to know. 
Jeremy Falcon
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Don't be put off by my experience. If you think the management route is the right way for you then go for it.
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No worries. I'm not phased one bit. I actually am a manager. I just like hearing people's thoughts is all.
Jeremy Falcon
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Well, considering I've done something similar in my career, I'll chime in. I think most experts in the industry recognize that we the industry loves its buzzwords like people love their lottery. I mean, it's not Notepad we use, it's a Strategic Data Procurement Appliance Application.
As cheesy as it sounds, be honest with new employers if you're looking. You're learning new skills that not every tech person learns, and that's valuable to the right people. Here's what is going to happen. The non-technical people (which is most) are going to usually glance right over your resume. It may as well be gibberish to them. Which means, you'll need to play some catch up on the latest trends and buzzwords.
IoC is a good example. Any real pro has been doing some form of IoC or another for decades now. It's also a buzzword, just like Cloud and IoT. There are buzzword frameworks now to help with IoC. You can explain the fundamental concepts to someone about what IoC really is (more than just DI), but once again... gibberish. So you'll have to speak the language of your customer and use the same key buzzwords they're already looking for. They don't know what they're hiring. And so, it's buzzword bingo. Much like a primitive pre-Google search engine.
None of this applies to people who are technical mind you. Just those that aren't. Also, if you use a recruiter, most of them will remove links to work examples and personal websites, etc. in fear of you being contacted directly. So, I'd give work examples or charts explaining how you helped grow the company, but also remove personal ways of contact on them so a recruiter has no qualms about using it.
So in short, yes... market yourself as a CTO if that's the career path you want. But also mention the size. Say it was for a small team. Leading five people isn't that much different than leading one, just as long as you keep organized. Business is about communication and systems. So... communicate and catch up on the latest buzzwords and just accept not everyone will see the value in what you've accomplished, but the right people will.
Jeremy Falcon
modified 21-Jul-17 15:49pm.
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Buzzword bingo is never a viable approach, never - worst advice ever. What next? The pokemon song?
As a contractor that finds my own work the main only agenda item is what you can do for them/their company.
Only - lightlyvery lightly pepper a few buzzwords into that script, 98% of what you say has to matter to them - a few carefully chosen buzzwords is enough to show you're not useless. And by carefully chosen, means only those you fully understand.
Does a chef use every type of spice in every dish? No, only ever the few that they understand and make sense to the dish.
Get the role(s) of the interviewer(s), then: for instance if it's the accountant type it's about reports and traceability, if it's higher management it's all about performance and picking up exceptions/changes/trends in the business, ....
(BTW: This can work with head hunters if you're stuck with one - find out their background.)
You must watch their faces, see what makes their eyes open - hit those suckers again in the wrap up - what makes their eyes glaze over - change immediately (sometimes don;t even finish the sentence)
to paraphrase the above
1. talk the talk of the person you are talking to, watch their eyes - see what makes them buzz
2. expand on the hits you see - tell them how you make their work in that easier/better/faster
3. use your buzz words carefully - as few as possible - for a few of them briefly how/why it applies / matters to them. (Don't leave buzzwords hanging, they're not Christmas tree baubles.)
if their eyes glaze on the buzzwords, stop, do not add any more new ones - pick the most important recent one already used and briefly explain it for their situation, after that you must go 100% their language (zero buzz).
That corny joke: "I know judo, jujitsu, karate, kendo aikido and a dozen other Japanese words." - Don't be that guy.
Never try to fool with buzz words you don't understand, can't elaborate or worse rationalise to/for them, they may get bored and ask you to explain in details how/why it works/matters for them, or roll up a month later and ask you to demonstrate that you are using that buzz (often with a genuine knowledgeable friend/family member in tow) - bullshitters never last.
Sin tack
the any key okay
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I'm not hear to argue with people online not speaking from experience.
As a tip, if you want more business, don't start off your conversations with saying to someone they gave the worst advice ever. Even if I were wrong (which I'm not), there's constructive criticism and destructive criticism. Clearly, we know which one you prefer. And you're acting like the typical know-it-all developer with zero people skills.
Putting people down doesn't make you look better, it shows the experienced people you have no experience. May you find some value in that.
Jeremy Falcon
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There, I updated the intro bits so that people who don't understand context as a whole, before they give a knee-jerk reply, can better grasp what was really meant to be conveyed.
Jeremy Falcon
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Thank you for the response.
I have tried very hard to keep the technology stack current (Azure, Angular & yes IoC). Partly to avoid my own career stagnation and partly to ensure that we are able to recruit good people. Big data and AI would be a hard sell, as clearly, our data aint that big! Also, it's the non-technical buzzwords that are missing. It's hard to BS "change" or "stakeholder" management (apart from keeping the MD off the code).
The good thing is, I don't think I would have a problem walking into another senior developer role tomorrow, it's just that that option feels like going back where I was 5 years ago.
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You're welcome. You and I are in the same exact situation man.
I spent the past two years of being a technical project manager, but never got certified with a PMP, etc. Everything I learned was on the job over two-some-odd decades of being in the business. Being in the job market now, all I can say is if you do start looking then start looking now before you get too unhappy with your position. Expect a lot of companies to say no thanks to you as a CTO, but there will be a few that say yes to you officially being one. Most likely for a smaller company to start with, but at least it will be legitimate then.
Two jobs ago, the CTO of the company at the time who's a buddy of mine, told me he started his path into management from the get-go. Late teens / early 20s sort of thing. So even he had to build up the CTO history, he just started sooner. The CIO of the last company I was at, which is one of the largest company's in the world for what it does, had to build his way up too... he just did it inside the company. So one way or another, you have to start somewhere.
JohnBug wrote: It's hard to BS "change" or "stakeholder" management (apart from keeping the MD off the code).
Just to play devil's advocate, that largely depends on the company. But yeah, you're right... in a successful business I agree. Numbers don't lie. And when you start talking to legitimate people in the business, it's hard to BS anything. This whole BS aspect of it comes when dealing with people who have no idea what they're talking about. And that's most of the industry. It doesn't mean lie. It means you have to speak their language a bit simply because they don't know any better.
It's like sales. People don't buy something unless, for the most part, they already think they need it or at the very least can comprehend it... in *their* view. If you want to get a point across to someone not technical, sometimes you have to speak their language and not ours.
JohnBug wrote: The good thing is, I don't think I would have a problem walking into another senior developer role tomorrow, it's just that that option feels like going back where I was 5 years ago.
Same here man. All I can say is what I'm keeping in the back of my head... if it doesn't make you happy then don't do it. If you go back to being a dev and you don't like it, it's bad for the employer too. I had to fire someone before who would've otherwise have been awesome just because she was miserable all the time. So, if it doesn't make you happy, push forward man. In the long run, your coworkers will be grateful.
Jeremy Falcon
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Also, mention the other skills you have. Say how you helped the company since its inception. I've hired devs before and what I've learned from that is it's hard to find a good worker. So, if you're a good worker you'll always have a job IMO... just as long as you convey that to the world. The trick is, is to make yourself stand out from the bad ones (and there are a lot) so the world knows you're a good worker.
Most people do just enough to get past the interview and the boom back to not caring about their work. Don't be that person. Find a way to let people know you're not that person so you stand out. And then I believe the rest will handle itself so you won't have to worry so much about which titles to use.
Jeremy Falcon
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Startups like generalists because they don't have enough people. Large companies like specialists, the larger the company, the more specialized they like them.
Get the CTO title officially recognized, and then put it on your resume. You could look for a CTO role in another startup, or perhaps even in a small company, but unlikely you'll get that position in a larger company.
As for non-CTO jobs, same deal -- smaller companies will value your generalism more than larger ones will.
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patbob wrote: Startups like generalists because they don't have enough people. Large companies like specialists, the larger the company, the more specialized they like them.
That's not a bad way to look at it. That said, throughout my 20+ year career as a software developer, I've always worked for small startups that eventually have all been acquired by larger fish (one of them being Microsoft).
Personally, I'd rather hire/work with someone who can demonstrably be useful in multiple areas, than an expert in a very narrow field. It's too easy for people to "turn into Wally" (see Dilbert) and disappear in a large company and coast for years on a skillset whose value diminishes over time. You can't do that at a startup, so from my perspective, working for a small startup is never a "waste of a career", as the original poster put it.
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dandy72 wrote: from my perspective, working for a small startup is never a "waste of a career", as the original poster put it.
I complete agree. After all, what's the point of a career? I concluded a long time ago that it was to earn an income while enjoying what I did and, if possible, have fun while doing it. If I'm doing that, it isn't "wasted".
dandy72 wrote: Personally, I'd rather hire/work with someone who can demonstrably be useful in multiple areas, than an expert in a very narrow field
I absolutely agree -- that's one of the things I look for when interviewing candidates.
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Just saw three large women leaving the gym. as they walked past me I mumbled under my breath
"fat cows"
Enraged one of them replied "what did you say?"
"You herd"
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dandy72 wrote: I miss Al Bundy...
We feel your pain:
- Get Married
- Have Kid
- Look In Mirror
Problem Solved !
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I wasn't implying I wanted to be Al Bundy. 
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I was just giving you a viable solution to your missing him.
For all I know, you'd rather be Bud, or Kelly, or even Peg.
Who am I to judge?
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Al Bundy got a wife upgrade as Jay Pritchett, so there's that. 
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I have a feeling Jay's wife won't hold up over time as well as Peg Katey Sagal did.
(Maybe his solution is to keep upgrading every few years? Sounds costly...)
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I liked Katey. I didn't like Peggy. 
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You're too herd on them, they WERE leaving the gym after all...
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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