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What band?
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Quote: I was a drummer in a rock band at my university called "Schrödinger's cat".
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Wrong.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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Noisy, not always very musical, perhaps... but "wrong"? In what way?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Never heard of the "Schrödinger's cat" university. Where is that?
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It's the one you may or not be attending until someone sees you at graduation!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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I work 9-5 (well really 7 - 330) M-F in an office environment.
Yes you can make a decent living ----- with experience
No, you do not have job security as no one really does in any industry these days.
I would think that getting clients as a freelancer would be almost impossible for someone with no experience. But I don't know for sure, never been a freelancer.
*Disclaimer* none of us are fortune tellers so we can't possible predict the future. Programming might get taken over by our robotic overlords by the time you get your first programming gig so your mileage may vary.
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Absolutely no idea.
Yes, it is possible to make a comfortable living - even a good one - as a developer it depends on too many factors to be able to say "go for it!". Do you have any aptitude for it? Any ability? Or are you just going to find that it is actually hard work and get bored? I dunno, and I suspect neither do you.
Not everybody that wants to can do it the job: it takes a "mind set" than many just don't have - for proof go look at the sewer that is QA and see how many people are having problems with basic stuff despite apparently having a job in the industry.
So assume you might be capable and invest your time, effort and a little bit of money in training: a good book1 or better a course to see if you can do it. Pick a language (C# is a good start) and start learning it properly. See if it fits you, and you fit it!
1: Addison-Wesley do good ones, as do Wrox, and Microsoft Press - avoid anything with multiple exclamation marks, "in XXX days", or "for dummies" in the title.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: or "for dummies" in the title.
I disagree. OP just wants to get exposed to various languages and possibilities. I think the Dummies books are exactly what the OP should go for. Simple, not too in depth, but enough for OP to find out if they may want to continue in it.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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CableX1 wrote: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder?
Certainly. You can even make a decent living as a not so decent programmer/developer/coder. I see it all the time.
CableX1 wrote: Will I have job security?
Whether you're a decent programmer or not, job security depends mostly on whatever mental illness the management has. And they almost all do, and it all affects the decision making. The real question is, will you have "career" security. Sure. I'd suggest finding companies that are writing the code that can then write the code the rest of us are writing. 
CableX1 wrote: Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible?
As a beginner programmer, no, not feasible (except for, well, that's another story.) To be a freelance programmer, you need experience, an established client base and most importantly, an established network of friends, coworkers, recruiters, and clients that will recommend you to others.
CableX1 wrote: I've heard plenty of horror stories of development being outsourced, etc.
That'll never go away. The better your skills are, the less you have to worry about that. And by skills, I mostly mean being able to speak the language of the client's/employer's country clearly. 
CableX1 wrote: Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer?
Sure. 9-5:
Cons: Ridiculous meetings, lots of interruptions, commuting, cubicles, pigeon holing, office politics
Pros: Peers, camaraderie, social contact
Freelancing:
Cons: Often solo, income great one week, 0 the next, more difficult to find contract work, often cleaning up someone else's mess, possible longer commutes
Pros: Often solo, income can be great, work is usually more challenging and interesting, contact is more often with the real decision makers, less office politics, much fewer meetings, sometimes remote
My 2c.
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote:
CableX1 wrote: Can anyone out there speak of their experiences as a programmer, either at a 9-5 kind of job or as a freelancer?
Sure. 9-5:
Cons: Ridiculous meetings, lots of interruptions, commuting, cubicles, pigeon holing, office politics
Pros: Peers, camaraderie, social contact
Freelancing:
Cons: Often solo, income great one week, 0 the next, more difficult to find contract work, often cleaning up someone else's mess, possible longer commutes
Pros: Often solo, income can be great, work is usually more challenging and interesting, contact is more often with the real decision makers, less office politics, much fewer meetings, sometimes remote
Methinks you forgot to mention:
9 - 5:
You work 9 - 5, then get to go home and not work, and even after a bad day by 7pm you're doing your own thing because nothing matters till 09:00 the next day.
Freelancing:
Sometimes you work 09:00 - 05:00 (yes, 20 hours straight), notice the sun coming up, shower, sleep for a few hours, and then at 09:00 repeat the same again (without even realizing 2 - 4 weekends have come and gone),
and sometimes you work 11:00 - 11:23 and then go surfing for 3 days ...
In either case above: your mind will will be on it 24/7 - and sometimes that will only start to fade up to a month after the project ends.
But then you will know you are a freelancer.
(... and being able to switch off at 5PM [and not give a s***] will be the life you dream of.)
Sin tack ear lol
Pressing the "Any" key may be continuate
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Robert den Hartog wrote: In either case above: your mind will will be on it 24/7 - and sometimes that will only start to fade up to a month after the project ends.
But then you will know you are a freelancer.
Good point and exactly my experience. Which I actually really don't mind, because even as a 9-5 employee, I experienced that.
Robert den Hartog wrote: (... and being able to switch off at 5PM [and not give a s***] will be the life you dream of.)
Nope, not built that way. I suppose I could discipline my mind to do that, but it's not my natural state.
Marc
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I didn't know you were gonna ask this question but an hour ago I posted a status on Facebook,
If you want to be a programmer, just because the pay rates are high, my recommendation for you: Stay away! #programming #tip #careeradvice Frankly speaking, there are rare chances for you to get a "good" job in computer science, or IT department. My own views are that you get a good job if you have a Microsoft (or any other similar giant's) certification. Most of the employees look for that. So, since you are beginners, let me walk you through the Eden of programming!
Quote: some resources on Mac and Windows programming.
Learn either one of them. Either do Mac programming or do Windows programming. Do not entangle yourself in both of them at the moment, one of them uses Swift or Objective-C language and other uses quite multiple languages, .NET framework and some web technologies.
Quote: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder?
Yes, but your table will always be a mess. Your hardware or laptop components, sensors, keyboard etc. will always be left over and your wife (if there is) will always be mad at you! I don't have a wife.
Quote: Is being a freelance programmer a good idea or even feasible?
Do not do this. Freelancers don't get the respect that they deserve. Most of the times, they are asked to do a project of $1000 worth in under $100 with 5-10 modifications later. Even if they say something, they get a bad voting by the recruiter. That is one of the reasons I left the freelancing world! Build your own applications, sell them, monetize them using advertisements or sell in-app purchases such as premium options and features. You will get a good earning from there. Otherwise, get an on-premises job.
Quote: Will I have job security?
In most of the freelancing projects, there is very less security of the payments. On the premises and in the offices, you get full payments for your monthly job. Your job is safe and you work in a group, where you get to eat and talk in a group. For a programmer, that is the only social life he gets.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Yes, you can make a good living as a programmer/developer/coder software engineer. But in order to do that, you need to know how to build correctly functioning, performant, secure, extensible, scaleable and maintainable software. And that comes from writing code. Lots and lots of code. And making mistakes. And learning from other developers.
It's a great ride - keep at it, and I think you'll enjoy it!
/ravi
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The danger here is you're asking a bunch of hardcore tech-heads for their warped opinions! Personally, I think that if you couldn't program in assembly language before blowing the candles out on your 10th birthday cake then you must wholly inadequate as a programmer.
The reality though is that most people with IT jobs aren't that into it and get by just fine. If someone is going to pay you, it won't be for the elegance of your code. It'll generally be for producing something which is just good enough but does what they want. In finance (my domain), you can earn an absolute fortune writing little twiddly Excel VBA macros with a bit of business knowledge because finance loves Excel. Hacky or not, no-one cares.
I don't do that though, because I hate Excel. Freelancing is very doable, as you are super-expendable as opposed to a permanent employee who you have to make redundant + make all sorts of other sacrifices and who might scream cries of 'unfair dismissal' when you try and boot them out.
Outsourcing happens a lot, but they usually reverse it after a few years having realized what a bloody awful idea it was in the first place.
As someone else said, in this mean world there is little job security or loyalty any more, but no more so in IT than any other industry. I say go for it, but for the love of God, don't do Java...
Regards,
Rob Philpott.
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Rob Philpott wrote: The danger here is you're asking a bunch of hardcore tech-heads for their warped opinions! Personally, I think that if you couldn't program in assembly language before blowing the candles out on your 10th birthday cake then you must wholly inadequate as a programmer
You've pretty much proven your first point with what immediately followed it.
What curriculum even teaches the kids assembly nowadays?
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Yes you can, but be prepared to start at the bottom, and suck up as much knowledge from those around you. In my experience, don't other with certifications, experience is way more valuable.
If you are good/lucky you can work your way up the chain pretty quickly. To do this, be prepared to move fairly often [maybe every 2 years] to keep yourself motivated and to learn different skills/industries. If you're prepared to move often, job security is probably less relevant.
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How are your "marketing" abilities?
You can be the "greatest" programmer (whatever) ... but if you can't "sell" yourself (or have someone do it for you), you won't get anywhere.
So, besides (some) skill in programming, you need: confidence; good spelling / grammar; able to craft a custom cover letter; bid, estimate and schedule intelligently; etc.
You "job security" (LOL) is dependent on how well you master the above (and then some).
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CableX1 wrote: Can I make a decent living being a programmer/developer/coder?
Depends heavily on your locale.
CableX1 wrote: Will I have job security?
Once you become good, you can stop caring about that. There's enough jobs out there that need to be done.
CableX1 wrote: either at a 9-5 kind of job
You mean an employee; most companies expect you to 'not have a 9-5 mentality'. In which case your first question should be whether that also counts for the pay.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Thanks for all the responses, everyone...they are much appreciated!
Programming has been in an out of my life in various ways. Took a BASIC class in high school a LONG time ago, tried making websites a little back when the internet was relatively brand new and that's about it.
I like the creative aspect of it the most. You are making something in the end...I find that a bit more appealing than managing servers, switches and applying Windows Updates, hoping they don't blow anything up.
Freelancing would be something far in the future, if I would even want to go in that direction. I've realized that all along, but naturally would like to hear current experiences.
The road sounds exactly as I imagined....learn, learn, learn, code, code, code...get the experience and that will lead the way from there.
I have started out with the Dummies books. I know that eyes will roll and I get it, but I found it was the best way to get my feet wet. I have other books that are way more technical, so really, the Dummies books are just the shallow end of the pool for me...the ankle deep pool, that is.
I'm thinking of going more the Windows route, but am considering the mobile route too. The Mac one would be more for fun.
Some of the interesting things I've heard from various people:
"You can find a lot of work doing javascript."
"My friend took a mobile app series of classes and is now doing that, making tons of money!"
I take everything I hear with a grain of salt and as a side note, I'm not about making a ton of money. Would be nice, but I have a family to support, so that's where my head is at. I'm not going into this with $$$ in my eyes and insane expectations.
Please, continue with any comments or experiences. The more information, the better.
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IMHO, the key to success is experience. The field is way too large for most devs to have both wide and deep knowledge. (I know I don't.)
I started out by writing desktop applications (I enjoy working with rich UIs) and have built Windows apps for about 20 years, and server-side code (also Windows) for about a decade, and now work on server-side code and mobile (specifically Android) UIs. My language of choice is C# (Xamarin allows me to build Android apps in C#). Choosing Windows (vs. the Mac) was a decision I made in the early 90s (I found the Petzold book easier to read than the Mac doc set) and have since been comfortably nestled in that technology.
My knowledge of web front ends and things NodeJS or Pythonesque is less than zero, but that's OK. I love what I do and am happy there's a market for it. I've never selected a technology because it pays well. Instead, I look for opportunities that allow me to grow my knowledge.
I hope my aimless writing provides food for thought.
/ravi
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Can one make a good living (as a freelancer)? Yes, certainly. Can you? Only you can know that. There are - at least here in the UK - at least 2 types of freelancer. What we call "bum-on-seat" - you get hired by an agency, turn up at the client (along with lots of other freelancers usually), and do what the client tells you between 9am - 5pm. Bill monthly and make decent money. But you'll need a ton of experience and a great CV to get past the agent. No real benefits over "permie" working other than higher hourly rate, and opportunity to get breadth of experience. But expect gaps in income, no holiday/sick pay/pension/training. OR you can work remotely for lots of clients, from your own base. Expect low pay rates, gaps in income, no holiday/sick pay/pension/training AND you have to pay for your own hardware/software/desk.
21 years ago I started off doing the former, switching to the latter about 10/12 years ago. Most tasks are a couple of days long (for which you get maybe a couple of hours' payment, as you're competing on price against India/China/Eastern Europe). But then, you find the odd customer who recognises quality over hourly rate, they pay well (sometimes extremely well) and you get loads of repeat business. Some years my turnover has been 2 - 3 times what it could conceivably have been as a "bum-on-seat" contractor with equivalent experience. But those good customers are 1 in 50, maybe 1 in 100, so you have to work hard to sniff them out and then make sure you become indispensable to them.
It's vital you can not only do a decent job technically, but be able to sell yourself to any customer in any situation (and if you can't, identify that QUICKLY and move on to the next opportunity). As someone else suggests, KEEP all your code and build up your own library, of concepts if not raw code. Re-use and save yourself time, and constantly improve and innovate. Don't waste your time learning technologies that are not going to be core to your offering; if a client needs a skill outside your skillset for just a part of a project, outsource it. Network and make connections, and make sure you offer work as often as you seek it.
Don't try it if you're not comfortable with your own company, can't be flexible with your schedules or have financial commitments that require constant income, or if you don't get a buzz from a good job well done. If you deliver a great technical solution it's only you that's going to recognise it, so don't be dependent on feedback from clients. Great when it happens but (mostly) you're a commodity to them and if they give you the time of day they'll expect a discount in return.
I admit I've had some lucky breaks and had pretty good experience (15 years' worth) before taking the freelance plunge, but am so glad I did and can't imagine ever returning to 9 - 5 with just one employer or client.
Jump in and give it at least 6 months, during which time make sure you're working continuously - either networking, marketing, developing your skills (on "example" sites if you've got no clients) and building your portfolio. Constantly review what you do to see how you could do it better/faster/cheaper. If you can, come up with a "product" rather than a service (even if it's just packaged that way). e.g. sell your skills in hourly packages of "database optimisation", or "SEO", or "platform upgrade". Setting out the deliverables first, rather than the skills you'll use, leads to less dispute over whether you've met objectives and gives you a standard framework to re-use with each client, saving you time.
Whichever way you choose, good luck...
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I'm a freelancer, but work is scarce. I don't use the freelancer sites, as way too many projects there for for mobile, and I only did my first Android app last week, and they're a little too impersonal; people don't look at your profile, only your record on the site and rep points.
I have now started an intense campaign to convince small and home businesses of the need to be online, and online properly, not just a Facebook page, and definitely not a *@gamil.com address.
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Yeah, good luck with that Brady (the intense campaign). I'm not so sure the web site is really necessary until the home/small business is actually sustaining itself. I've been in business since 2002, corporation since 2008. My web site is still on my to-do list . My wife used to run a mail order business. No matter how much we advertised the site, and we spent a lot of money, lots of cross indexes, etc. People just kept going to Amazon. Eventually we were assimilated by the Borg.
"As a beginner programmer, no, not feasible (except for, well, that's another story.) To be a freelance programmer, you need experience, an established client base and most importantly, an established network of friends, coworkers, recruiters, and clients that will recommend you to others."
I'll let the OP correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the term "freelance" is the wrong word, maybe it's a location thing. When I hear freelance, I think of the web sites where people go to find someone for a small job. Looking at what the rates are, I just pass, not worth my time. In my world, I think "contract" - as in no employee relationship with the company. This has its up and downsides. I absolutely love it - I can make decisions that are completely sensible - if I need a new laptop or some other piece of hardware, it's a bureaucracy of one. The downside is that your boss is a money grubbing SOB that hates to let you take vacations because you stop billing .
Another plus, thought process toward money. Before I started working for myself, the family conversation for a new car would start with, "Well, I suppose I'll get a raise this year of 3%, and if we can pay off this and that..." Now, I think completely differently. If I want a new car, say that shiny Lexus flirting with me, I think about picking up some extra work. For me, it's freeing. I would point out that I absolutely love engineering, coding, systems design and embedded stuff. It's really not a job for me. And yes, this annoys the hell out of my wife, but she's okay with the work as long as I get paid. When I was an employee, if I worked extra (it happens), she became a badger. If I worked weekends, I met the wolverine.
As for the quote above, the key is the network. You have to have some history to prove at least some skill in the art. You want to start asking people you know if they have any programs or applications they need written. Express some interest in trying to solve a problem. Be prepared to work hard.
My ten cents
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
modified 8-Oct-16 17:06pm.
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The "online campaign" needn't include a website, but I can't get someone up on shared hosting WordPress, i.e. customisation vs. wordpress.com, for around $2.50/pm. I'm also aiming at lesliescatering@gmail.com addresses on business cards and adverts. It's just not as professional as info@lesliescatering.co.za. This would cost a small setup fee and under $10 per year.
As for freelancing, I have also always depended on a network, and the odd random query on Twitter, where I have a great deal of followers based on my technical tweets, and my profile clearly states that I'm a freelancer.
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