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Sander Rossel wrote: When it's bad, it's still pretty good.
Unless it involves Fred in the neighboring cell taking a fancy to you.
OK, technically you're right, it will still be good. For Fred.
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Perhaps you're in this all wrong.
Treat Fred to pizza, make him feel special. Thing will get better 
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True, it's fundamentally tasty. Must be the speed of cooking, I have a wood oven in the yard, it's amazing, really. Takes a bit of getting to know, but it's also good for tandoori food as well, and slow roasting joints.
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There's no gripe from you like this or whatever else someone calls pizza.
But classic? I think not!.
I've has pizza in Italy (in case anyone asks) - which is just plain flattened bread. Everything else is a topping. Everything.
Fortunately, I live in the place that is truly the source of the best pizza on earth: NYC and vicinity.* I wish it were otherwise - that this heavenly repast was universally available, but not so. Every mouthful a Bacchanalia of sauce and cheese in its own right.
I've had tasty surrogates (in Chicago, for example) - but they only share in common the same basic ingredients. Taste - bite for bite - NY vs Chicago - heaven and earth.*
The comment, above, about pineapple - is correct. A vile crime.
On the other hand - a topping of breaded eggplant - one step shy of an orgasm.
* Things that are sold by sources such as Dominoes and Pizza Slut couldn't even be passed off as waste.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I don't understand your first bit, but by 'classic' I meant the goats cheese nuts and honey combo, as Griff says, it's a classic.
As for pizza though, yes, there are no rules,. Tomatoes were introduced from the Americas in the 16 th century, so before that they were all cheese-oil based, or cream.
Tarts flambé is a kind of pizza, from Alcase, sour cream, onions, bacon bits, bloody good it is too.
Focaccia, the Italian bread with say, olives, rod,wry, olive oil and coarse salt, is a kind of pizza too, as is pissaladiere, possibly the original pizza, made with stewed down onions, anchovies and black olives. It's also delicious.
However, the best pizzas are in Italy, There is nothing anywhere near as good. 
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Munchies_Matt wrote: However, the best pizzas are in Italy, There is nothing anywhere near as good.
Now you're just being silly.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Well, one would think that they cold be as good elsewhere, but they just arent. What is it, the ingredients? The specise of oak used for the wood fire, the beef tomato? The plum tomato, the Italian mozzalrella? Who knows, but I have heard many say that US ingredients dont have the same (or as god as a) flavour as in Europe. (I know this to be true of artichokes for example).
But anyway, I was in Aosta skiing many years ago. By god the food was good, and the pizzas were amazing. Never had one as good anywhere in the world. (The bruschetta was also superb, the steak and courgettes amazing, and on and on and on, just everything was incredible. Perhaps that is Italy, doing its thing, producing food that just better.)
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Munchies_Matt wrote: Who knows, but I have heard many say that US ingredients dont have the same (or as god as a) flavour as in Europe.
Oddly, not to 'pick a fight', but my comment is plain and simple: European Arrogance.
In addition - I don't know how what you ate was cooked, but a proper NYC Pizza is cooked in a very hot (600F/315C roughly, varies by Pizzeria) oven with a stone bottom. It's actually note even baked in any normal sense, but is rather cooked through the bottom, through the dough. The top still cook, the crust browns, etc., at that temperature - but there is magic. You don't need fancy or expensive ingredients - the Monday night Special where I live (which now I'll have to get) is $12, tax include, or about 10 Euro, I believe. Most intriguingly, the best ones absolutely do not come from the expensive restaurants. The price goes up a couple or three Euro during most days of the week - but another shop will have a Tuesday special, etc., so there's always a way.
I've never eaten here yet it's 100% familiar.[^]
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Pizza is cooked in a very hot (600F/315C roughly, varies by Pizzeria) oven with a stone bottom
Yes, and the best burn wood for the slightly smokey flavour they impart. I have one in my yard, and a very nice pizza it makes too.
Looking at your link though and right away you have the problem with US pizzas, too much cheese! A pizza is not cheese on toast, it should look like this: Ristorante Pizzeria Imperia (Oneglia) - Picture of Ristorante Pizzeria Imperia, Imperia - TripAdvisor[^]
bits of cheese here and there, but plenty of space for other ingredients to get some heat, and for the base to get cooked. The base often shows through in places all over the pizza the topping is so light.
What you get is crispier, lighter, with more distinct flavours instead of the 'tomato and cheese soup' US pizzas have. Plus US cheese....
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I looked at you link - that kind of pizza would leave them all on the unemployment line in NYC. I'd be ashamed to take that out of my home oven.
As for toppings - the pizza I showed you has a huge amount of rooms for toppings (hint: you simply put them on top of the 18" (>0.5m) diameter circle.
Munchies_Matt wrote: 'tomato and cheese soup' US pizzas have. Plus US cheese....
Obviously, then, you've never eaten one. But the most important point you made - that typical Euro-arrogance about cheese or any type of food: as though you've some monopoly on quality or taste. Well, news flash for you: anyone who was any good at cooking emigrated to here long ago.
And THIS [^]is what a pizzaria should look like - food to be eat and enjoyed - without a tux and tie.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: I'd be ashamed to take that out of my home oven
And thats the big diference. In italy they are delicate, light, plenty of space for toppings to cook and not in the cheese soup that a US pizza is.  Deep pan is, by nature, a US invention.
As for ingredients and quality, I can only go by my own experience, and what I have heard from others, that US stuff isnt as good as European produce.
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Munchies_Matt wrote: eep pan is, by nature, a US invention.
In Chicago - and I didn't bring that up. Like the stuff you call pizza, all it has in common with REAL PIZZA is the same basic ingredients. Although from the sound of what you'd put on a pizza, it's really bread baked with assorted toppings. That stuff you alluded to, when you started the thread, is not pizza. Just bread baked with assorted toppings. The sauce-and-cheese soup you refer to? Not likely for food that is delightfully designed to be folded, picked up with the hands, and eaten.
Munchies_Matt wrote: As for ingredients and quality, I can only go by my own experience, and what I have heard from others, that US stuff isnt as good as European produce.
As I've mentioned, typical Euro-Arrogance.
The Top 10 BEST FOOD CITIES in the World | The Culinary Capitals of the World[^] Look at Number One. Do you want to know why? Because we embrace the diversity. Best of all, you don't have to put a week's pay down on the table when you're done. You could - but the only thing you'd gain is a better wardrobe on the waiter. I prefer a young girl in short-shorts bring the food, myself, but you know - different strokes and all that.
But the cool part? In NYC we don't worry about the worthless details of culinary snobbery. We just simply taste it, which is the real point. Like US$500 single malt scotch. Not significantly different than the US$50 bottle. The only beneficiary of gastronomic arrogance are egos (so long as they don't look back and see that they're being laughed at) and those who convinced you that it's worth it to give them too much of your money. The Continental Placebo Effect.
I don't give a flying elephant who's produce and cheese are better - the plain simple fact is that the Pizza in NYC area is something special. The other dishes could be wonderful - but they are not pizza.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: from the sound of what you'd put on a pizza, it's really bread baked with assorted toppings
Hey, the Italians invented it, and named it, if you want to use pizza to name a big, round, cheese on toast with tomato sauce thats your problem. The ITALIAN pizza IS bread with topppings, as is their pissaladiere[^] and their
focaccia[^]
(in fact pissaladiere is most likely the original pizza). Starting to see a trend here?
As for your list, its incorrect. Lyon has the reputation of being the best place in France to eat, but it isnt true. It *might* have been good, 100 years ago, but quite frankly, when a cities trade mark dish is a 'Rosette de Lyon' (sliced salami arranged in a flower shape) you know its time to move on.
Barcelona too isnt that good. Yes its got a few good restaurants, but they are based on reputation and you can eat equally well at many other towns on the Coats Brava.
As for Paris thats a laugh. Yes, like any other big city, its bound to get it right on occasion, but outside of the big obvious names like Ducasse the best I ate there was Thai, and the vast majority of its French restaurants are serving up the same old tired dishes that quite frankly just arent that good these days. (French onion soup, creme brule etc)
Cant comment personally on the rest, and no surprises NYC is ranked because of its variety, since it has a large population of virtually every country on earth in it, but let me say again, based on the comments of AMERICANS who have said US ingredients dont have the same flavour as European one, which I can affirm based on my time there (Idaho potatoes are nothing special, artichokes lack the bite, and US beef isnt irony in taste).
So your list looks to be based on perception rather than reality, past reputations and a scattering of stars. I see Thailand got in there with Bangkok, how about Hong Kong? That was an awesome place to eat from what I have heard, and how about somewhere in India? Is all Indian cuisine going to be ignored? Does Rome, Bologna, San Remo, Naples or Florence not have good food? Its the usual kind of list you read in a sunday newspaper, like bucket lists, its group think, light weight, and not serious.
(Oh, and I can eat good food on the coast near me for say 30 euros a head, with wine, all while wearing swimming shorts and a T shirt, so dont think European food is about snob value and expensive.)
SO lets just admit that:
1) US ingredients are by nature not as good as Italian ones.
2) Let Italians define pizza.
And admit that in Italy pizza is pizza at its best.
--edit--
A load of internet noise on US produce tasting dull: Google[^]
modified 28-Sep-16 2:27am.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
SO lets just admit that:
1) US European ingredients are by nature not as good as Italian ones. no better than anyone elses.
2) Let the cooking Italians define pizza, and they live in New York.
FIFY
There are radio/TV ads for a chain franchise "Poppa John's Pizza" trying (unsuccessfully) to get a foothold in NYC/Vicinity. Since the stuff would be a poor excuse for a frozen supermarket pizza they use the European model: "Better Ingredients - Better Pizza". Sounds like your claims. Maybe you should open a franchise!
Munchies_Matt wrote:
(Oh, and I can eat good food on the coast near me for say 30 euros a head, with wine, all while wearing swimming shorts and a T shirt, so dont think European food is about snob value and expensive.)
I guess you missed it - I could feed a family for 30 Euros with the best tasting food - and, in our case, the waitress can be wearing the shorts (probably saves 10 Euro/person right there).
Munchies_Matt wrote: US beef isnt irony in taste
Nay and Neigh: you're probably used to eating the meat from over-aged horses (which we ship to Europe). I cannot answer for the taste so I can only speculate.
Munchies_Matt wrote: the best place in France
is obviously any other country. All hype. Did you ever read the children's story "The Emperor's New Clothes" ? That's the only reason anyone would eat that stuff let alone pretend it was anything special. Mainly, the cuisine consists of garden pests.
But basically you managed to get the point: NYC is the place to go for a good feeding. Egalitarian to the N'th degree, whether a Snobateria or steet vendor. If you're not good it's easy to move on.
And what the hell's this fixation on artichokes ? At least if you picked something useful, like German Hops, I'd understand your interest.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: I guess you missed it - I could feed a family for 30 Euros with the best tasting food
No way. A cheap US restaurant isnt going to give you the best ingredients. I have lived there you know.
W∴ Balboos wrote: All hype
Hey, its your list, if you dont like it now then retract it.
W∴ Balboos wrote: But basically you managed to get the point: NYC is the place to go for a good feeding
Never been there, but it should have variety, given its cultural mix, but that doesnt mean its the best. I have been to most places in Europe, California, Florida, India and Turkey and IMO Italy has the best food in terms of simple taste, really, it is incredible, and India for the sheer yummyness of good curries.
California and especially Florida are at the bottom of the list. (The one good restaurant in California happened to be Italian. )
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Munchies_Matt wrote: No way. A cheap US restaurant isnt going to give you the best ingredients. I have lived there you know.
First of all, you lived in places like California and Florida. My wife, to this day, remembers her horror in having ordered a pizza in California. No one goes to California for the food.
Repeating the quote:
<blockquote class="quote"><div class="op">Munchies_Matt wrote:</div>No way. A cheap US restaurant isnt going to give you the best ingredients. I have lived there you know. </blockquote>
And now we've finally come to the crux of your problem! The placebo effect of thinking that if a restaurant uses what (someone!) claims are the best ingredients you get the best food. The absurd delusion that cost equates to quality. How else can one justify over-paying? The others who ate that way will agree - or else will have to admit to being duped.
A description that seem to fit:
"I paid a lot, which shows I have class and discriminating taste"
Revisit my previous post and consider that reference to "The Emperor's New Clothes" and transpose the analogy from clothing to food. In the US, we have jackasses that will spend $200 for sneakers - that doesn't make the sneakers better, it makes the buyer stupid. But nonetheless they'll barf to their friends how they've got "the best" because it cost more.
I've been to Europe and found the food bland and mundane - even in Italy, which was indeed the best food of the lot, whether it was Roma, Milano, Pesaro, or Rimini, I found nothing that couldn't be had better in a local pizza joint in NY. Actually, the ice cream was damn good - but that (as gelato) has since made its way to here. Also, Amsterdam bakeries had some pretty good bread.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: My wife, to this day, remembers her horror in having ordered a pizza in California
You said 'feed a family for 30 euros', stick to the topic.
W∴ Balboos wrote: I've been to Europe and found the food bland and mundane
UK: Same as US. Fruit and veg looks good, but lacks flavour.
France, Spain, Italy: Fruit and veg is often blemished, but is ripe and very very tasty.
If you found it bland then you must have been either in the UK, or trying very hard to eat badly on the continent. Where were you outside of Italy?
W∴ Balboos wrote: Roma, Milano, Pesaro, or Rimini, I found nothing that couldn't be had better in a local pizza joint in NY
You ate at a low quality chain restaurant then? Seriously, NY pizza as good as it is in Italy? You are mad.
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Munchies_Matt wrote: You ate at a low quality chain restaurant then? Seriously, NY pizza as good as it is in Italy? You are mad.
I have been to Italy. You have NOT been to New York. Ooooops!
I was surprised and disappointed at the pizza in Italy - no preconceived notions. You, on the other hand, seem to be blossoming with them.
The California pizza reference is for your sake in that you said you lived there and I was supporting your experience. Stick to the topic? No good deed goes unpunished!
And the 30 Euro amount still holds - I sent you a link the other day - it had a menu - scope it out. Jack's Pizza: Long Beach, Lido Beach and Oceanside.[^] although for this particular pizzeria I only hit the Monday $10.99 pizza special on the bottom. There's plenty more menu, too - and it's not just the smear on the plate I got in Europe that was supposed to pass for a meal.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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You dont even know what real pizza is so used are you to it dripping with cheese and tomato sauce, so I am not surprised your taste buds lack refinement.
W∴ Balboos wrote: I only hit the Monday $10.99 pizza special on the bottom.
And I have eaten pizzas in Germany for 4.50 euros.
W∴ Balboos wrote: not just the smear on the plate I got in Europe that was supposed to pass for a meal.
Am I supposed to take you seriously?
Read my (now) old link, US produce has less flavour, everyone says it, so isnt gong to compete with an Italian pizza even IF it was made properly, and without it being slathered in sh*tty american cheese. And yes, American cheese is crap, its greasy rubber. Everyone says that too: Google[^]
Face it, you have sh*t produce and dont know how to make proper pizza, but because YOU are used to it it has become your yardstick and you are incapable of judging it honestly.
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Munchies_Matt wrote: And yes, American cheese is crap, its greasy rubber.
You've emphasized your ignorance - "American Cheese" is a processed product that is suitable for the taste of young children. It's usually required by law to be called "cheese food" because it's not legally cheese. Like Velveeta. As for any other cheese (cheddar, Brie, &etc.), only ego and cherry-picked data are involved in your selections so as to feel like somehow something in Europe still remains superior to elsewhere. The degrading effect of tired old cultures.
Munchies_Matt wrote: Face it, you have sh*t produce and dont know how to make proper pizza, but because YOU are used to it it has become your yardstick and you are incapable of judging it honestly.
Your logic . . . sucks . . . as I have had pizza, both urban and rural, in Italy. Do I have to try every damn resturant in the country to try to find one comparable with any typical neighborhood pizzeria in NYC? As I said before - you're judging without tasting, I'm judging from experience - the normal conclusion, then is someone doesn't know what they're talking about because they 100% really don't know. Hint: it's not me.
Munchies_Matt wrote: US produce has less flavour, everyone says it, so isnt gong to compete
Who is the famous everyone to whom you refer? Another artichoke eating european elitist? A bunch of you sitting at a table convincing yourself that your "in the best of all possible worlds" ?
Even were your fallacy of ingredients true, it's like coding: it's not the language you use, but the code you write that counts.
Munchies_Matt wrote: You dont even know what real pizza is so used are you to it dripping with cheese and tomato sauce, so I am not surprised your taste buds lack refinement.
Refinement? You! The standard to which all others are to be compared!
That junk you displayed as a pizza? Looks more likely to pass as a bready method to recycle waste.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I expect NYC pizza is the best in the US, after all, it's where the immigrants landed. The further west you go the longer the immigrants have had in the US and the more degraded their palet has become. So I expect if you find a real old 'Pappa off the boat' pizzeria straight from Italy it will be good, but only because he CAME FROM ITALY!!!!
And let's face to, the reason Pappa went to the U.S. is because his restaurant in Italy failed, so what does that tel you about the sh*t you eat thre that goes by the name of pizza? It's just Italian reject isn't it?
Combine hat with the already poor US ingredients, as attested to by so many people I hVe met, and in the two links I have given you and you have a recipe not for pizza, but pizzle. That's what you eat, pizzle.
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That is kind of genius and deductive insight that makes me glad there's an ocean between Europe and here. We don't need to whine about who's is best because some illusion of squatter's rights on a product means it's the best because it was (possibly) first.
That's never been true - and won't become true even though you really really want it to be true.
But if it helps your digestion at one of those artichoke orgies, you go on believing it. Those of us who decide with our minds instead of our egos; logic instead of emotion; well, so long as that infection stays an ocean away, we really don't give a rat's ass!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Must have been that long ocean voyage that made those Italian immigrants so sick they lost their ability to distinguish flavour. 
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Munchies_Matt wrote: made those Italian immigrants so sick they lost their ability to distinguish flavour
More likely, the two World Wars, and accompanying scarcity of food, made those who stayed behind willing to think pretty much anything they get is absolutely great.
Or, as they say in neighborhoods adjacent to the great restaurants of Europe: "Has anyone seen my cat, lately?".
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: the place that is truly the source of the best pizza on earth: NYC
I entirely agree. For pasta, go to a village in Tuscany, but for pizza, it has to be New York.
Unfortunately, I have had to give up pizza now.
Whenever I send my wife out to get pizza, she always insists on flying first class. It really was getting too expensive.
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