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I totally get it. I loved programming and went to college thinking it would teach me how to do it (they have "programming" classes). I found that every programming class in college assumed you had never done it before, so they all started over and never went in depth.
I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
Hogan
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Okay, but surely starting from scratch meant teaching you how to create variables and perform loops. Otherwise, what the elephant did they teach?
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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Sure, they taught these things in college. But there is a big difference between doing this for a handfull of homework assignments and performing this every day in your job.
College doesn't teach a person to code, it teaches them concepts about how to code.
Hogan
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snorkie wrote: I still dabbled on my own after college, but I didn't really start learning till I got my first full time gig programming (5 months after graduation). That first year of work was life changing. I was lucky to have a patient mentor as I learned the ropes. Still doing it 16 years later.
You can't do any good as a programmer if you just have a mild interest in it. I fell in love with it when I took my first FORTRAN course back in 1976 (40 years ago) and that's still what I do for a living. 
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I used to get mad at people who had right to be in the position they were in.
But at a company I was at recently, I realized that it wasn't that individual's fault. It was that individual's manager or team who hired them.
I guess some colleges are better than others.
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I don't think it's just colleges - I think it's about attitudes. When I started in this business, coders wanted to code, and they would do that with or without a formal education. Now...everyone has an iPhone (or Android), everyone has access to Google, they see the dollar signs on the job description and assume it's easy-peasy. And provided you just google everything it is. Until you actually have to do your own unique work and then it all turns to sh*t becaue they don't have a damn clue how to do anything.
There are several QA questioners who appear to be using QA as a way to keep a job... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I don't disagree with anything you say, but ,y point is that I don't know how these guys are getting diplomas, and I don't know why managers are hiring them except that some idiot manager hired those managers as well.
Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
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Daniel R. Przybylski wrote: Hell, I don't know how most people got their drivers license either!
Ah, that one is definitely a Christmas Cracker! 
And ex girfriend's mum passed her test on the third try:
First test she reversed into a bus. A bright red double decker.
Second test the examiner told her to turn right, she turned left and got lost in a one-way system. He had to turn it into a lesson to get back to the test center and was an hour late for his next appointment.
The third test we suspect involved colourful-paper-tubes-that-go-bang-when-you-pull-them.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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No it's common occurence.
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But isn't that the case with most java programmers anyway?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Ooh, you've cut me to the quick. 
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".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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What made me laugh is that a bunch of guys at a company I used to work at had to take a Java course/exam. Some of them were C programmers, and some of them Java programmers.
With no exception at all, the C guys scored A Lot higher than the Java guys.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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That is because Object references in Java work exactly like C pointers. They just removed the address-of(&) and dereference(*) operator from Java so you can't see the addresses.
Java always passes by copy/value even for object "pointers", so you often have copies of copies of copies of "pointers" all referring to the same object/memory allocation.
Alas, Java has no const to protect the data on the end of the pointers.
Java "final" with an Object declaration is only const to the pointer, not the data.
This type of thinking is like breathing to a moderately proficient C programmer.
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<snob>
Probably from a poly, or one of those 'new' university as they're called these days.
</snob>
Regards,
Rob Philpott.
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Polytechnic university are not so bad. I studied in one. Yes, some lectures could have been perfectly avoided, but many others were really cool and not at all easy.
But, of course, I am speaking of 15 years ago. Before the Bachelors / Master restructuration in Europe.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I agree  . I've held about 20 or 30 interviews over the past few years. My top tip is to focus on what the candidates hobbies are. If they don't include 'programming', 'running my own website', 'learning about coding', etc. then they can't be too serious about progamming for a living.
If you want a well paid job in programming, be prepared to have no social life for many years. 
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programify wrote: My top tip is to focus on what the candidates hobbies are. If they don't include 'programming', 'running my own website', 'learning about coding', etc. then they can't be too serious about progamming for a living.
My hobbies are my car, my dogs, sitting on the couch doing nothing, and sometimes writing a little code at home. Yeah, I have a web page but it only serves static pages and the most impressive thing on it is the rolling patriotic quote that changes every time you somehow refresh the page. It's been three years since I made any substantive change to it.
programify wrote: If you want a well paid job in programming, be prepared to have no social life for many years.
Been there, done that, and after 35 years of writing code, I'm no longer interested in 20 hour work days. I put in 8 hours and get my work done. If it's a true emergency, I'll stay as long as necessary after my official quitting time. But that doesn't happen very often.
Oh yeah, I'm at the point where I've forgotten more programming stuff than a lot of people know. I learn what I need to, but I'm of the belief that the old ways are generally the best ways.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Bang on. Well said.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I'm at the point where I've forgotten more programming stuff than a lot of people know. I learn what I need to, but I'm of the belief that the old ways are generally the best ways.
True.
Software Zen: delete this;
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What he said (Literally) I'll be damned if I sell my soul for any type of job.
Having a love for something and *sustaining* that love for it should never be mutually exclusive options in life.
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I have to tell you that I find your "preferences" questionable, and would ask you to re-assess them.
From what I have seen, there are no such simple "attributes" that tell you if a guy will do a brilliant job or a bad one; it's more a case of seeing what frightens them and gets them interested.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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programify wrote: then they can't be too serious about progamming for a living.
Nice top tip you've got there.  ( @chris-maunder : any update on that sarcasm emoticon?)
My top tip is that someone who can't spell programming correctly can't possibly be too serious about doing it for a living.
modified 15-Sep-16 21:03pm.
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