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Forogar wrote: That's because it doesn't understand "Tuckey". Is this some kind of Australian slang? I know "tucker" means food...
No. It's meant to be 'A big Kentucky Fried eating motherf*****'. Many tries later, I stop laughing enough to get Siri to understand.
Michael Martin
Australia
"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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I enjoy only one work in the past when I volunteer for MSF. I am not doctor but did other support work. I see lot of heartbreaking things what people do to others, but still I feel I am helping, but even in a small way.
Now I am programmer and everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles. Every day I like work less and less. There is more things to do because the meaningless fixes they take time. Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different? I think I make the wrong choise.
Do everyone have to work like this? Is big company better? Is it no difference the size but intelligent people treat others better?
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If you don't like your employer or not happy, then you should look for another job. Not everyone fits in with the culture of the organization.
If you don't like coding or reading about programming in general, then you should look for a career that would be more enjoyable to you.
Personally, I am not very happy in my current position, but I enjoy coding.
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Welcome to the real world. Learn what really matters to you and ignore the rest.
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That's just people.
Some are good, some are average, some are a-holes. Doesn't matter how intelligent they are; what they do for a living; how rich, how poor; how old, how young; how white, how black; how male, how female.
A-holes are a-holes. Sometimes they grow out of it (and sometimes they grow into it).
Development probably has the same proportion of them as any other profession (except estate agency, recruiting, and politics). They just show up more to you because you work closely with them.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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What I see is different
Some professions have people with similar character like politicians are extrovert and programmers are introverts. Maybe not all but more are like that
I think people in medical profession care more about other people
Programmer care less it looks like that, but I don't know, I only see small number.
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That's too small a sample. I've known some very extrovert developers!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Member 12345678 wrote: think people in medical profession care more about other people
I don't know about that. For the most part, they're making money off of other people's misfortunes. Don't judge the medical profession by those that go and give of themselves as volunteers. The majority will send you a bill because they held their hand to your forehead and told you to taken an aspirin.
You're not face to face with them, but you will notice here on CP that introverts are not particularly common. With or without their gin.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: you will notice here on CP that introverts are not particularly common
Yes, Neddie. We only accept introverts with a good pedigree.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Member 12345678 wrote: I think I make the wrong choise
Yup I do believe you are correct, if you find details of gathering user requirements tedious then I suggest you change careers. PLEASE!!!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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It's more about the firm than the job. Places where it's lousy to be a developer are generally places where it's lousy to be anything.
I've had bad experiences of small firms (especially family ones) and equally, you can feel a bit lost in too big a place. I generally prefer medium side places but it's the luck of the draw with all of them.
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No. How people treat other people has nothing to do with intelligence.
It's got to do with manners and sensitivity. In fact I think that a lot of intelligent people lack those virtues.
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You are just asking for getting 'Sheldoned' a little. 
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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Well, it's not that different from what you wrote in your reply below 
[Edit]: I just saw that it wasn't your reply. Sorry for the confusion!
btw, I don't know what "Sheldoned" means, as I don't watch "The Big Bang Theory"...
...oops, now I blew it...
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You must be very sensitive.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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You caught me again 
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Someone supposedly intelligent and insensitive.[^]
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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I've worked for startups... I've worked for big firms. They were all in the financial sector, though.
In my experience, there isn't much of a correlation between user intelligence and good treatment of us geeks. Some users are easy to work with, and some are just a constant pain in the #%*#@$. That's humanity... Good apples and bad apples.
And when it comes to dealing with other programmers... Same thing. Good ones and bad ones, wherever you go.
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Then I think I am unlucky, I have more of the bad apples.
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Deadlines and "featureitis" are part of the game. Marketing will always say that they need features x, y, and z by a certain date or they will not be able to position the product. Engineering will always say that there is no way the product can be ready in time. Eventually, you discover that Marketing's feature list isn't quite as firm as they think, and Engineering often discovers a clever way around some of the difficulties. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work... 
As for coding standards, it is not for nothing that they are known as "religious preferences". In my experience, any coding standard will work as long as it's followed consistently.
As for people, I have worked with all kinds. Part of being a professional is learning to live with your colleagues' quirks, but this does not mean that you should accept abuse.
I hope this helps.
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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The question I think you need to deal with is: is the frustration and "lack of fit" you are experiencing in the work/workplace you currently are employed in a sign that this type of work is, perhaps, not the right place/work/role for you ... at this point in your life.
Of course, reading your post, we can't know what's going on in your workplace, what the "culture" is, what the norms for interaction are. And, while I suspect that you are undergoing some form of "culture shock," and that this job is a very new type of experience for you ... that's just a hypothesis.
Extreme chronic personal dissatisfaction is a sign that something needs to change; the degree to which that change involves/needs/requires a change in your cognitive appraisal of "how things are" or, needs a change in the external reality (the work, your role, the environment) ... that's a very individual thing.
I'd like to suggest you consider some counselling to help you clarify what's going on.
best wishes, Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
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Member 12345678 wrote: Are lot of programmers behave like a**hole, or only my company is different?
Do NOT ask me that question, lest you get a tirade. 
But you did...
Member 12345678 wrote: everyone argue about deadline and feature and where to put parentheses and a lot of things make them look like the imbeciles.
Those are NOT the things that make other programmers (and I use that term so loosely it becomes devoid of meaning) look like imbeciles.
You want to know what makes them look like imbeciles?
- unrealistic, overly optimistic predictions of when work will be done, because they have NO EXPERIENCE in estimating tasks.
- lack of planning, design, planning, architecture, planning, planning, planning.
- constantly wanting to re-invent the wheel because they're too lazy / scared / dumb to learn what the senior developers have done
- wanting to use the latest gizmo (language, open source, etc) with no consideration to maintainability, especially when they go away and the company is left hold a WTF is this shyte and who the heck has actual experience with it that we can hire and fix it???
- an absolute lack of understanding of the usefulness of unit tests, integration tests, logging, good architecture, mocking, etc.
- an absolute lack of understanding of what tooling is necessary to support the customer, the tech support people, and the QA people.
- no requirements documentation, just diving into coding with no consideration, thought, or exploration of the bigger picture.
THOSE are the things that make other programmers look like imbeciles.
Marc
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I agree with your points, because I've seen them all happen.
I'd just like to add an additional piece to restore some hope to anyone who might, after reading all of this, feel as though the development career landscape is nothing but a desolate wasteland: there are some good teams out there that don't have the issues you mentioned.
In my experience, the good teams tend to be smaller ones with a decent amount of experience. That's not to say everyone is senior. A mix of senior and more junior developers can work well in the right environment.
I think that strong technical leadership might be the most important part of a non-pathological dev team. It's important that leadership set expectations in terms of estimating, planning, testing, documentation, and finding the right balance between relying on proven technology and bringing in newer pieces when they are the right tool for the job. I worked at a company that had this at the start, and it was great. Over time, though, the insanity level increased in direct proportion to the MBA-types who joined the company and started making promises to customers and investors without checking to see if the promises were achievable within a reasonable time frame, or even checking to see if the promises would be achievable ever.
So although all of your points are things that make programmers look bad, I believe that in many cases, petulant programmers are the proximate cause of the problem, but weak or non-existent technical leaders (or technical leaders that are undermined/handcuffed by non-technical leaders) are the ultimate cause.
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Ryan Peden wrote: I think that strong technical leadership might be the most important part of a non-pathological dev team.
Quite so, and this seems to be most lacking in my current experience.
Ryan Peden wrote: but weak or non-existent technical leaders (or technical leaders that are undermined/handcuffed by non-technical leaders) are the ultimate cause.
Absolutely. That is exactly the problem I'm dealing with.
Marc
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