|
And UGLI is also a citrus fruit with a copyrighted name.
UGLY it is! 
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
|
|
|
|
|
What do you all think?
I've seen some of these projects die because you end up needing some critical piece of code from someone and they don't deliver. I figure the design should identify the components to a sufficient granularity to allow people to compete for the implementation. Whoever's is best (qualified of course by also getting it done), as decided by the project manager, gets their code put into the project. Not everyone would compete on the same module/function--there would be teams assigned to different pieces.
OK. Le'me have it for this idea.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
|
|
|
|
|
Won't that break the teamwork aspect? People working on the same part of the project won't help each other 'cause they want to be the one to win. That's just what we don't want.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
|
|
|
|
|
jdunlap wrote:
People working on the same part of the project won't help each other 'cause they want to be the one to win.
An interesting point. But that's only if work is delegated to teams to begin with, instead of to individuals. What I've seen in the past is that work is delegated to individuals, and it's the individual that's the weak link. He he he. Who gets to "fire" someone??? (But seriously, how do we handle slackers like me?)
However, there is that approach--delegate work to teams instead of individuals. But that adds an interesting level of complexity in that a team leader pretty much (I would think) needs to exist. Teams could be pretty dynamic though--people could be on several teams and have several roles across the different teams.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think we want people going on their own tangents, but we can leave this up to each project team. They can do things however they want as long as they get it done, and done right.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
Until someone can explain the negatives of your idea I like it. Good cure for lazy arsed programmers (hey, stop looking at me!) who start off eager and then forget to put in new energizer batteries.
The implementation details of your idea though will have to wait until we have chosen the projects and seen how many are keen for each idea.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
Chris Losinger wrote:
i hate needles so much i can't even imagine allowing one near The Little Programmer
|
|
|
|
|
I see these projects as learning tools for all of us. I'd like to be able to work with better programmers than me (like Marc and yourself). I think competition would somewhat hinder that goal.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
Exactly!
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
|
|
|
|
|
Jason Henderson wrote:
I'd like to be able to work with better programmers than me
That is a big part of why I am here at CP. Broaden my horizons and to keep myself justly humble.
[Edit]However, competition, if appropriately structured, may be a good thing. Let's pick our project(s) first and then go from there.
A problem with democracy is that everybody has something to say and nobody can agree.
[/Edit]
--
"The money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its rule by preying upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is concentrated in a few hands and the Republic destroyed."
-- Abraham Lincoln
|
|
|
|
|
I concur. Since collaboration on projects would be long distance it would probably be better to use a more adversarial version of extreme programming.
Less, "Hey, let's do it this way."
and more, "Your sorting routine is wayyy slow, here is a faster one."
Note, not  adversarial.
Just  adversarial.
|
|
|
|
|
Paul Watson wrote:
Until someone can explain the negatives of your idea I like it.
The funny thing is, when I first heard of extreme programming and pair programming, that's the first thing I thought it would be--competitive based programming oriented toward learning and utilizing the best. I was pretty disappointed when I read that one guy looks over your shoulder. *Brrrr* Gives me the shivers. What a waste of time. Sort of like the lowest bidder system for procuring government equipment.
Plus, I like my own keyboard shortcut layout. I read the in XP, you should swap who "drives" a lot. I'd spend more time swapping in and out custom keyboard layouts than getting work done!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
|
|
|
|
|
Marc Clifton wrote:
to allow people to compete for the implementation.
I wouldn't like to see our projects becoming some programming contests. My intention to take part of CPP is to learn - improving my programming skills while working together with very good programmers, getting more experience in working in a team and project management (which is challenging at all as for we would be a distributed team). I like the team idea where teams are working on parts of the app, but I'd prefer to work together, which of course would mean to have team leaders.
Greetings,
heinz r. vahlbruch
c++ & c# programmer from germany
If IntelliSense doesn't have it, it ain't worth calling - Anonymous
My compiler compiled yours - Seen on a VC++.Net T-Shirt
|
|
|
|
|
If we have competative module building, people are going to come up with good designs / ideas. We should have competition/comparison/merging and iteration stages so that all peoples work does not go to waste.
Imagine you spent a week on a section and it was not used at all. That would piss people off, and may cause people to drop out. If people know that anything they submit will go through a review/merge stage and not just used/thrown-away verbatum, then I think things will improve greatly.
Roger Allen
Sonork 100.10016
Were you different as a kid? Did you ever say "Ooohhh, shiny red" even once? - Paul Watson 11-February-2003
|
|
|
|
|
Before we all start on some gloriosky project, I was wondering if maybe it ought to be discussed as to how the fruits of our labors are licensed. (Maybe I missed the discussion). Is the end result to be a free-ware product? Just for CP'ers? Shareware? For sale? What sort of open source licensing?
Am I jumping the gun? Maybe the answers vary depending on the project.
Personally, I'm all for a free-ware, open source no strings attached project, because that way there's no issue. I think the truly amazing thing will be to actually succeed at the project development. However, I've come across third-party apps that restrict you from using their tools on open source projects or have other licensing restrictions. (it was mentioned to me that Carlos' controls can't be part of open-source projects, for example). So it's maybe more of a sticky issue.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
|
|
|
|
|
Either free-ware or CP-ware.
In other words, maybe Chris could sell it and give us all t-shirts or something. I'm really not doing it for $$.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
*turns on his imagination*
We finish the project. It's awesome. Everyone wants it. All the CPP volunteers get free copies. CP starts selling them. Demand rises. CP has an IPO. All CPP volunteers begin collecting dividends for CP membership!
John
"We want to be alone when we hear too many words and we feel alone when it has been a while since anyone has spoken to us." Paul David Tripp -- War of Words
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think this is a valid point to raise Marc. Esp since the number of egos involved. I’ve seen or read about more than one project die because of people arguing over licensing terms.
Personally I am for a no strings attached type of license and the GPL seems to require further source dissemination. I am not too sure about the restrictions of the LGPL, BSD and, Apache licenses. A quick glance via google seems to paint a good picture of the “MIT” license. Or, can we just release the project into the public domain? I’m all in favor of something like that.
Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that?
- Jack Burton
|
|
|
|
|
What is the Code Project all about? Sharing code and experiences.
I think a non-free model will restrict us since these projects are for any and all CPians.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
I definitely agree. I thought it might be worth mentioning issues involved in third party libraries, but I may be jumping the gun here.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
|
|
|
|
|
The subject says it all. Free ![Beer | [beer]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/beer.gif) on us. And have some ![Good Stuff | [The good stuff]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/vegemite.gif) too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
BSD licence is probably the one that gives the most freedom to all of us. Anybody even mentions GPL and I'll be reaching for my gun.
Michael
'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
|
|
|
|
|
I thinik it should be free, using something similar to eitther the LGPL, BSD, or even the wxWindows license (it is GPL but has an exception - the code can be used in a commercial app without distributing the source.)
If we run across any code we'd like to use that uses a more restrictive license, I say screw it, don't use that code. We'd just have to do that part over.
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." - Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Idea submittal and voting have come to a slow crawl or stopped altogether so we'll just say its time to chose the final three projects.
We could go just by the current voting result (see below), but I think its only fair that we re-evaluate what we would really like to do. Before doing so, I'd like to give you my opinion of what we should do and I know at least Paul and Marc will agree with me. I'm not going to endorse a particular project, but rather an ideal for our first stab at this. Its called...
KISS (keep it simple stupid)
Whatever project(s) we choose to do, it's/their scope needs to be somewhat limited (initially for release 1.0). Rome was not built in a day and CPPs are sure to fail if we try to do too much too soon. Heck, the infrastructure for large group projects isn't even in place yet. So we have a lot of thinking to do before we "dive right in."
Here is how I propose we proceed:
1) Decide on 3 projects via voting (now until Tuesday) which gives us 24+ hours
2) Pick a project leader for each project (preferrably, the originator of the idea AND someone with experience writing articles and managing a herd of cattle )
3) If you want to, we can pick a CPP coordinator who will look after these first 3 projects, but I doubt we'll need one.
4) Divide up into teams (I have an idea on how to do this but we'll discuss later). There may be lopsided teams.
5) Start an article for each project. NOT QUICKLY THOUGH! I'd like to see us decide on a standard layout and "features" in our project article. Its going to have to be different somehow than a standard article (I see tables  ).
6) Project leaders and team members will then need to define the scope and timeline for the project. A design document would be very nice. Anyone have a nice Design Doc template?
7) Here's where the fun begins. Start coding. Project leaders should be good delegators.
8) Try to stay within the scope and timeline, giving frequent updates and screen shots.
If you have any different ideas, please discuss them by replying to this message.
Below this message you will see a thread for PROJECT VOTING. Within that thread are 10 messages with the title of each project. Please give a vote for each message using the message voting system. The top 3 after Tuesday morning will be our beginning projects.
CURRENT RESULTS: (top 10 with 50 volunteers)
Score, IDEAS for CPP, (# votes)
4.4 Universal Gui LibrarY (UGLY) (30)
4.3 Application Framework (13)
4.0 ASP.NET web controls replacement library (14)
4.0 Alife/AI (13)
3.8 Defect Tracking/Source Versioning (16)
3.6 threads and multi-processors (6)
3.5 CP Community Tools (15)
3.5 online task manager (5)
3.1 Code snippet library (5)
3.1 project management system (4)
Please keep the noise level to a minimum so we don't confuse too many people with a long, convoluted thread. Also, I recommend changing your CP forum display options to 50 messages per page.
I think this is the longest message I have ever written. Probably until Tuesday anyway... 
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
I never did like it.
The volunteers and CP can make something off it (with most of the $$$$ going to CP