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Eddy Vluggen wrote: You can get a higher yield using artificial fertilizer.
Exactly. That's because the insects leave the food alone. If they won't eat it, why would we? 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: If they won't eat it, why would we?
We don't really get a say in this, economics says that the poorest will be depending on the cheapest food available, without having the luxury to consider quality.
Lots of those things that go into the ground, and plants, might be tested as 'safe' for humans in a certain dose, but that does not guarantee that those things do not interact in inpredictable ways.
Some diseases only occur in the 'developed' countries. So, what is 'better' would mostly depend on your parameters for claiming success.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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I know. I was simply pointing out that if the insects won't eat it, we should think twice before thinking it's perfectly safe.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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It is a forum; I had to spell it out in case someone mistook it for a casual pun 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: I had to
Indeed you did. Can't let anyone on the internet misunderstand anything. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Some diseases only occur in the 'developed' countries.
Yeah - but consider the increase in cancer deaths as an example, compared to simpler times. One important reason for that is people in developed areas live long enough to get it.
Influenza and Pneumonia were common causes of death until late into the 20th century.
Don't just consider 0th order claims - ask questions about what was left unsaid. Is there an agenda?
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Yeah - but consider the increase in cancer deaths as an example, compared to
simpler times. One important reason for that is people in developed areas live
long enough to get it.
I was referring to diseases that occur only in developed countries, like Crohns' disease. That is not an effect of living long.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Is there an agenda?
Multiple. Always is.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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In a way, I'll repeat the answer, that of living longer. Different context.
People are living who normally would have died early in life due to various medical advances. Instead, they are living longer and manifest two effects:
1) There is greater opportunity to diagnose the disease
2) They are more likely to live long enough to breed and thus increase susceptibility in the gene pool for said diseases.
My (non-blood) niece, in fact, has Chrohn's disease and has, in fact, bred.
Basically, the real point is that none of these things, especially in a diverse biological system such as human (more diverse in modern times do to facile interbreeding opportunities) does not lend itself to simple solutions. Nontheless, there is no shortage of people fastening simple solutions from both real and perceived enemies (environmental or otherwise). Mix in a medical profession which delights in the financial rewards of over-diagnosing.
Feed that with agenda and nurture with anecdotal evidence and you have fads, movements, and other illusory cures.
A gedanken experiment for you: consider your premise as to modern food production methods have inherent dangers and thus are costing health and even lives. Subtract from that the number of people who are living far healthier and longer do to an adequate food supply.* Do this figures come out positive or negative?
Far better foodstuffs to avoid: anything from China, Japan (since nuclear leak), and other sources. For that matter, aside from it's animal-rennet content, I've not eaten dairy from Europe since Chernobyl. I don't think people should just grin and eat whatever is dumped on the shelves - but wisely cutting ones losses from both a personal and world-view perspective is more rational choice.
- far more significant than any medical breakthroughs
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Increased yield is not due to lack of insect consuming the produce. It's due to the type of fertilizer providing an abundance the necessary nutrients for the growth of the plant. Insects don't eat the plants due to the application of pesticides.
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: Increased yield is not due to lack of insect consuming the produce.
Some of it is yes.
TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: Insects don't eat the plants due to the application of pesticides.
Which are often combined with the "fertilizers."
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I wish you'd explain that to 'my' insects. They eat everything.
Do you have any sort of reference that shows that insects won't eat food grown with non-"organic" fertilizers?
I've noted in a different post that there are, indeed, trace nutrients supplied by compost, etc., but we're trying to feed a world, here, not just sport gardening.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: I wish you'd explain that to 'my' insects. They eat everything.
You must have good food then.
The best defense for any plant is a healthy plant. Plants give off toxins, oils, vibrations, etc, to protect themselves from insects. A healthy plant will defend itself from insects very well and better than any man-made product can.
W∴ Balboos wrote: but we're trying to feed a world, here, not just sport gardening.
I'm not sure who started that rumor or why it has so much life, but there is so much of this world left that natural resources is not an issue when it comes to being able to produce food for the whole world. We're no where near at capacity.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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It's true that plants have natural toxins as a defense. That's what gives us much of the flavor (particularly in spice-plants). But you may have noticed that insects often have the name of a plant attached: Potato beetle, Corn Borer, etc. That's because they've adapted to that toxin.
It's why insects are so selective - not because they want to be but because they've generally only adapted to a small variety of plants. Monarch butterfly larva dine on milkweed - it's sap is toxic. Nothing else eats it - but they do (and themselves become toxic as a beneficial side effect).
RyanDev wrote: I'm not sure who started that rumor or why it has so much life, but there is so much of this world left that natural resources is not an issue when it comes to being able to produce food for the whole world. We're no where near at capacity.
That explains your insect observation vs. mine. We just live in very different worlds - mine, you see, is wastefully consuming resources faster than they can regenerate. Destroying entire ecosystems. All kinds of mean nasty stuff that is unsustainable. Tough luck for me - and the couple or so billion others of the roughly seven billion in my world who aren't fortunate enough to eat regularly, organic or otherwise.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: unsustainable
Exactly.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: may also be used as a kind of fertilizer
I think not. It's used to balance pH, being calcium based. There is no substitute other than similarly alkaline rocks.
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Member 9082365 wrote: I think not. It's used to balance pH, being calcium based.
..I'm just reading up on what marlstone consists of 
Since it is not a nutrient, it is not a fertilizer. Good to know that plants indeed do not eat rocks 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Watch me take both sides on this!
"A New Report . . . " didn't say who's report (particularly who sponsored it - so unless I learn the source I'd value it a little below worthless.
YET . . .
Even though vegetarian for 44 years (as of today), I do not eat or encourage eating Organiclly grown foods. Consider that in areas where there are no pesticides available that half the food produced is eaten by various vermin.
There's nothing wrong with chemical fertilizers - they do a fantastic job. I have no problem with feeding my lovely Serrano peppers their light blue soup. That being said, I've composted my garbage and that stuff is truly amazing. The difference is (as with Mother's Milk vs. Formula) the missing trace nutrients and what is referred to as organic matter. There are even plants that hate manured soil (e.g., carrots). Blanket statements in this realm are foolish.
GMO crops are a wonder innovation - the alternatives are either world-wide starvation as the population outstrips the ability to grow food more productively, or, the old standbyes:
1 - plague (reduce population)
2 - war (reduce population)
3 - chop down more forests for planting (environmental catastrophe).
4 - increase food supply simply by not feeding it to animals for meat production*
You're welcome to choose one or more of the above, starve people, or try to evolve faster than through classical plant breeding with just-in-the-nik-of-time-science.
As for Nature Food? Just remember that belladonna is natural (and organic!) So is aflatoxin, botulinum toxin and countless other natural delights; natural spring water containing arsenic is probably not a good choice as a beverage.
The reason some people can spend their money on organic food is because most of us don't!
*roughly 10 to 1 protein conversion - very wasteful.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: 4 - increase food supply simply by not feeding it to animals for meat production*
However salad is what food eats.
Mongo: Mongo only pawn... in game of life.
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If only - but, alas, so much grain is fed to the food-flocks.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Hey, it is a bad joke. 
Growing up in a rural area, I was shocked to find out they feed meat to cows. The cows I knew of got hay and grain (corn grown on the farm) and were grass feed. Good eating for a non-vegetarian.
Mongo: Mongo only pawn... in game of life.
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Don't worry - I saw your smiley face thingee.
As for feeding cows meat - ask the English (and Europeans, in general) how good an idea that is.
Mad Cow disease actually requires such practices to 'prosper'.
Also noticed in certain cannibal tribes (where they dine on ancestors after one year) - who died from a prion disease which now they will carry and die from so their kids can chow down on it too.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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