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Stefan_Lang wrote: That got me scratching my head as well, until I realized he mant "hate", not "had".
That makes more sense.
Stefan_Lang wrote: There's no good reason why there are only two possible window sizes for every application. That's fine for a phone screen, but not for a tablet, laptop or desktop!
I am not on a windows system right now so I can't test this out but I think you can shrink a metro app horizontally, not just full or half screen.
this may help for metro apps[^]
You are not limited to two sizes on the desktop. You can stretch or shrink the window from a non-metro app just like before.
Stefan_Lang wrote:
That may not be feasible. If you program for a living, the clients define the target platform. For a professional developer, it may therefore be more sensible to stick with W7. At least until the clients move on to W8
Unless you are working from home the client will provide you with a workstation with the proper OS and development environment.
That does not preclude moving on in you personal life. The added advantage is when the client does move on you will be ahead of the learning curve.
Even if you do develop from home there is no reason that you cannot develop desktop apps on a W8/8.1 machine.
Visual Studio still installs on W8/8.1 so just choose the proper solution type for the target environment.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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I only brought up the size (and number of windows) limitation because you mentioned it. Me, I do not use Metro. At all.
The link you posted is interesting, but in another way than you intended. It proves my point about lack of discoverability. Why is there no obvious way to change window arrangement? Why does it need an article to show users how it works? What was so bad about resizing windows by pulling at the borders that Metro is incapable of providing that feature?
A Windows border that changes the mouse pointer to another icon when it's moving over it - that is a discoverable feature. A setting hidden in a jungle of badly organized option dialogs? Not so much! (and if you want to know where I got my bad attitude about W8 option dialogs from: just look at that article again!)
I do realize that on a device with no mouse attached, and with a limited screen size, it may be difficult to catch and move a window border. But if that UI is meant for all devices, why on earth did the MS designers then focus all their efforts on creating an UI that only makes sense on a phone? Yes, there's a desktop. And, yes, on the desktop, resizing works just as we're used to (unless the charm bar gets in the way of course  ). But MS made a point about Metro being the future, and the desktop UI going away. Once that happens it's no longer about who moved my cheese - it is about who stole it!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Stefan_Lang wrote: MS made a point about Metro being the future, and the desktop UI going away. Once that happens it's no longer about who moved my cheese - it is about who stole it!
Get over it! 
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Desktop applications will be around for quite sometime. I consult for government agencies that have considerable investment in Win 3.11 thru Win XP based applications. In a recent costs analysis, conversion to Win 8.1 in a small (4000 terminal) agency equated to $1.6billion just to upgrade the hardware. Add training and software conversion costs to make the existing systems compatible, you start looking for further reductions in staff. The cost just rose to $7.8BILLION. (No wonder the Chinese are saying NO to Win 8.1.)
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I'm not sure I'm following you here. You can do anything on 8.1 that you can do with any version of Windows. If you don't like Metro (like I don't) simply don't use it. The desktop system (still really central to the whole thing) is just as functional as it always was.
Paint me confused. What's the problem?
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CodeBubba wrote: I'm not sure I'm following you here. You can do anything on 8.1 that you can do with any version of Windows.
Yes. You can. But it takes longer now. In terms of more mouse clicks/key press/screen swipes. Try performing the following actions
1) take a screenshot of this page and send the image by mail to some one.
2) add up figures on a web page using the calculator.
And that charms bar or what ever they call it is downright annoying. It pops out when it's not required and does not when you need it.
Und wenn du lange in einen abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Sahir Shah wrote: And that charms bar or what ever they call it is downright annoying. It pops out when it's not required ...
Right-click on the taskbar. Select Properties -> Navigation, and de-select the "When I point to the top right corner show the charms" option.
Sahir Shah wrote: ...and does not when you need it.
Win + C
Take a few minutes the learn the keyboard shortcuts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KjmBJxjNhs&sns=tw[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Sahir Shah wrote: Yes. You can. But it takes longer now. In terms of more mouse clicks/key press/screen swipes. Try performing the following actions
1) take a screenshot of this page and send the image by mail to some one.
Sames as other versions of Windows:
a) Alt+PrtScn
b) Open Outlook, select New Message
c) Press Ctrl-V
Sahir Shah wrote: 2) add up figures on a web page using the calculator.
Same as other versions of Windows:
a) Open calculator (I use it a lot, so it is an icon on my desktop)
b) Type or select with mouse, then Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V figures
c) Press + key between entries
d) Press = key to see result
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E.
Comport Computing
Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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1) take a screenshot of this page and send the image by mail to some one
(...)
And that charms bar or what ever they call it is downright annoying. It pops out when it's not required and does not when you need it.
Whooooosh. I'm sorry, but the irony is strong with these 2 sentences in the same rant.
How to take a print screen and mail it to someone in Windows8 (assuming you're on the desktop): open the charms bar and click share, select mail app and a new e-mail with the screen cap will be ready to send to your desired recipient.
Even better, since the charms bar has some memory, I have all my usual contacts I send shares right there in the share tab, so it's usually no more than 1 swipe and 2 clicks to send an e-mail with a print screen. Quite a feat of usability if you ask me.
As for accessibility of the charms bar, try to get a bit more how it works sooo much better than all kinds of bars, launchers and popups: you have to either hold your mouse in the corner for a long time or you can just hit the corner and then drag the mouse along the right edge of the screen. I think I've had about 1 false-positive charms bar in a few years and even in that case it wasn't intrusive.
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copy paste from apple fainboi forum  - man have you ever USED Win 8.1? Every sentence is crap 
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johannesnestler wrote: copy paste from apple fainboi forum - man have you ever USED Win 8.1? Every sentence is crap
you are the current a**hole here. You are trying to answer a serious discussion with shite.
You are the fanboy!
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Nope, johannesnestler is the only one making sense.
The OP clearly has not used Windows 8 at all, it took me all of 5 minutes to realise that Windows 8 is exactly the same as every other version of Windows if you stay on the desktop.
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If "it took you all of 5 Minutes" then it is you who hasn't used W8 and had the opportunities to discover the multitude of issues it has. I've pointed out a small selection in posting above.
I've used W8 for more than a year and wholeheartedly agree with the OP. If all you do is browsing the web, W8 is fine. For serious work, it's a huge pain. If I hadn't already put so many hours of work into my ultrabook just to make it similarly productive as every W7 or XP machine is already out of the box, I'd switch to Linux instead: that would probably also require some work to configure, but at least then I'd knew I'm in control.
As for johannesnestler, he disqualified himself from the discussion by needlessly insulting the OP, without even attempting to make a civilized argument.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I've actually been using it exclusively since beta(nearly 2 years now) and once you are on the desktop there is absolutely no difference from Windows 7(you do know that there is still a desktop right?). I agree that the Metro interface or whatever it's called now is a waste of time but there is absolutely no reason to use it.
What specific issues are you having with Windows 8? I saw that you mentioned Window sizes in your previous comment(whaat?) The OP's example is also completely useless, how does it take more clicks to e-mail a screenshot or use the calculator?
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See my posting here[^] (I hope the link tot he posting works - otherwise just look for my very first response to JimmyRopes in this topic)
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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The interface is not as different as it may seem. Sure, there's the store apps and the fullscreen app environment, but there's also the regular desktop environment. You can even set an option to boot directly to desktop. Then you pin your most recently used stuff to the task bar and the interface is basically Windows 7.
Sure, the full screen app store world is there, but you're not forced to use it.
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For some reason people seem to think that all that desktop users need is the ability to switch to the desktop and maybe a start menu. That isn't true at all. These two things are just what opens the door to serious work - but it doesn't go halfway to being as productive as Windows XP and Windows 7 were out of the box.
There are plenty of issues that make the W8 desktop needlessly hard to use; some caused by touch based functionality, some by removed functionality, some by the UI getting in the way in a manner it never did in any previous version.
This isn't a matter of choosing whether or not to use the metro/app world - it is the issue that the non-Metro/App world is messed up, too!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish.
Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more. There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective, not playing well with Visual Studio etc.
The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps, but that is mainly aimed for casual and tablet use; NOT to replace your main workstation/production/development environment (blabla..)
To add:
I have 3 Win 8.1 devices at home (2 gaming/development PCs, 1 laptop)
Dual boot Win8.1 and Win7 at work. Win7 is on here because I'm forced to by the IT admins, but much of my real testing is on Win8 because I need Virtual Machines, and Win8s Hyper-V is significantly more awesome than most others like virtualbox and VMware.
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Greyze wrote: Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish.
He may not have expressed himself very well, but your hand-waving doesn't make the problems go away. Not his and not mine.
Greyze wrote: Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more
I am not aware of any W8 desktop functionalty that I am missing in vanilla W7. However, there are plenty of things that are harder to do in vanilla W8 desktop than they were in vanilla W7 or XP. Not significantly harder, but enough (for me) to look and install alternate solutions and programs that bring back the W7 desktop functionality.
Greyze wrote: There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective
Yes there are plenty. I've pointed some of them out in another posting. I don't care whether these were magical changes, but they're there.
Greyze wrote: The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps,
Wrong again. Neither the OP said this, nor am I complaining about that. I couldn't care less whether W8 provides 2 different UIs or 20. The fact remains that the one UI that I and the OP care about has been messed up for no good reason.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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If you're going to multiquote and refute every single piece then it would be nice if you backed up something with evidence.
My "hand-waving" is all someone can get if they don't actually provide legitimate problem, if anyone has a problem then they should explain it clearly to get help. Just saying everything's bad gets no where.
What's things are harder to do exactly? install what "alternate solutions"? The only advocated software I've ever seen is bringing back the old start menu, but that isn't a benefit.
Plenty of things that make multi-tasking less effective? like what??
While the OP doesn't explicitly state it, a few things he mentions sounds like he's strongly referring to the Metro UI, which is obviously "NOT" for development or any power-user task. The original desktop UI is still there and it's vastly improved over Win7 (Such as no more useless Aero, much better explorer window, much more detailed Task manager, plenty of better shortcuts etc.), the only big difference is that there's a full screen start menu which isn't exactly a problem.
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See my posting here[^]
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Well I like my Win8.1 - I upgraded most of my machines by now.
Start-Menu is an non-issue as I always die <win-button> ... start typing/searching.
I like the UI (I just wish you could make title background without having to mess around in your registry) - you don't have to use the charms if you don't want to - all you need is to remember a few shortcuts (if you need to touch your mouse you failed - this is true for Win7 also  )
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Well I run W8.1 on my laptop. That laptop is basically my portable development environment with VS 2013. It runs just great!
I have also a main PC which is my primary development machine with Windows 7. Both are just great, BUT the multiple monitor thingy in Windows 8.1 is just much better.
But still I never would buy W8.1 for my main pc as long I have the OEM Windows 7 for it.
Talking about differences in programming, I don't notice any problems with WPF, Windows forms, ASP.net or other technologies from .net or Java. I guess it depends on the power your Windows 8.1 machine has. As well I have to say (even with a less powerful CPU and GPU) my Laptop (windows 8.1) boots 3-4 times faster than my Windows 7 device.
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I've been doing a lot of work on a website recently, using AngularJS extensively.
I have been working on this websites' search page, trying to make it look as slick as possible, and doing so by minimizing page reloads as much as possible.
As a result of this, I have been preventing the page from reloading when I update the URL (and therefore browser history), but at the same time detecting this myself and implementing the changes the user would normally see on the URL change manually (but trying to avoid any sort of flickering), the idea is to make the website feel as much as possible as though it's a desktop application.
It's been a freaking nightmare! The end result is a website that looks and feels great until you do something unexpected, and then it all falls apart. I have realised that I have been basically trying to do everything the browser does naturally, while been preventing the browser from doing what it does naturally.
There's just no way I can prevent the browser itself from doing it's thing, and do all of the things it does myself in Javascript. You are basically stopping the browser from doing anything, while trying to cover all of the edge cases the browser handles comfortably yourself. The reality is that crazy amounts of hours have gone into making those browsers do what they do well.
I'm starting to realise that this is probably why really big websites such as this one, Amazon, Google etc can feel a little clunky sometimes. It is because they are just using the browser as it is supposed to be used, and ending up with websites that are ever so slightly clunky, but way much more usable/functional.
The web, and the frameworks we use still have limitations which we have to abide by, we just aren't quite there yet.
I'm posting this now because it's a Friday night, and I am mulling the whole thing over with a pint!
Do you lot agree, or not?
modified 18-Jul-14 18:32pm.
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