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"If it were pre-ordained, then why would the pre-ordinance allow you to buy a plane ticket for a plane that is going to crash in the first place?"
It could happen that way also - you just need one event to stop you from entering that plane. There are many possible to choose from. The main goal is your survival, whatever means it takes to reach that goal are taken into consideration. It's a dynamic process, just as with all other events in life, it just involves some factors that we usually are not aware of. Some call it "Framework 2" - a dimension of reality where all events are coordinated in order to fulfil all individual desires. It's the opposite of pre-ordained - all events are a consequence on free will and individual choice. On the other hand, a choice does itself create some kind of pre-ordination within it's own context, you can however change the outcome if the probabilities allows for it. I.e. you can still change your mind before you jump from that cliff, however, as soon as you have jumped there's usually no way back (unless it's not your time yet).
"And the other 237 people who do make the plane - their time was pre-ordained to be at exactly the same time?"
What's the difference between 237 people choosing to die together on a plane and 10.000 choosing to gather at a stadion to see a game of football? In both cases it's an individual choice that makes you go there, it's just the purpose that's different. Suicide however is generally a taboo so choosing (usually on a subconsciious level) to die in a plane crash or some other accident is an alternative and "legitimate way" to leave the planet.
And it's not always all passengers at a plane crash that die. Often some survive - and often in ways that you may call miraculous. Why then choose to get on the plane in the first place? Maybe they want that experience for some subconscious reason. Why do people do skydiving? It's dangerous like hell, but it's probably an incredible experience. Surviving death can be a great wake-up call - it can make you feel like being reborn and make you look at life in a completely new way. I know from personal experience... 
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I can't respond here, lest it become Soapbox material.
Suffice to say, "what a load of old codswallop"
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If you truly believe the time of your death is predetermined, would you mind jumping off a cliff? I mean, doing it or not wouldn't make a difference, no? 
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One could always jump off the cliff, and then manage to miss the ground.
Just don't forget to take a towel!
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Isn't that kind of the idea behind the "Final Destination" movies?
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I guess it is, kinda, with the added ridiculousness of them actually cheating their pre-ordained demise - which is obviously complete drivel as, if something is pre-ordained, that means it's going to happen, not that it might happen!
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Many movies (or other story-like media) play with the idea of preordained destinies, but most often it's only a certain aspect that's preordained, and the details are left in the open - leaving room for the heroes to find a 'loophole' that somehow still fulfills the letter of the destiny, but doesn't end in catastrophe.
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I don't think so. The universe is random. You die because your body wears out, you get killed or, like my grandpa, in his sleep. Unfortunately, his passengers on the bus weren't that lucky.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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I think if the robotic choose to do so, the car maker won't sell much of these....
Commercial imperative trumps ethic! 
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I don't see why anyone would be upset about this unless they simply reacted without thinking.
Firstly, if bots drove all cars only freak accidents would ever occur.
Secondly, what is the difference between a bot deciding your fate and, well, fate? If you die you'll never know the difference and if you are the survivor you'll be extolling the virtues of robotic vehicles until you do die!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: I don't see why anyone would be upset about this unless they simply reacted without thinking.
Well you can be their beta tester. Have fun!
Jeremy Falcon
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Surely the lives of the many outweigh the lives of the one?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: Surely the lives of the many outweigh the lives of the one?
Not always, and giving a car the power of God, when a car can't feel compassion or anything for that matter is a bad idea. I'd rather have one person saved that actually did something useful for the world than 5 that were freeloaders. Acting like the issue is so cut and dry is a very primitive way of looking at life.
mark merrens wrote: "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Hey at least we agree on this!
Jeremy Falcon
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I think you're being a luddite. I can't see what difference it makes: would you rather leave it to chance?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: I think you're being a luddite. I can't see what difference it makes: would you rather leave it to chance?
And I know you're being blind and shortsighted. Might want to go experience more life then try again.
Jeremy Falcon
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Quote: And I know you're being blind and shortsighted. Might want to go experience more life then try again.
What? Have you not understood any of this? Apparently not!
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: What? Have you not understood any of this? Apparently not!
If that's what you must believe to rationalize your point of view, go right on ahead blind man.
Jeremy Falcon
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a) the fact that you are getting personal shows the weakness of your point of view and b) you appear to have gone off an some sort of tangent.
What, exactly, is your objection to robots, under very specific circumstances, deciding that the result of an accident could be somewhat mitigated (i.e. more people will live) by taking a specific course of action at the last moment.
How is this any worse than maintaining that blind luck and chance are a better arbiter?
Is your objection that technology is soulless and shouldn't be allowed to decide the fate of humans?
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: a) the fact that you are getting personal shows the weakness of your point of view
Ok, this is my last reply since you obviously would rather argue than learn. God this sounds childish, so shame on me for entertaining you this far. My bad. But, you got personal first. Duh. What a waste of time.
mark merrens wrote: you appear to have gone off an some sort of tangent.
Of course it seems like that, you're shortsighted and blind. What else would it seem to someone who has very little life experience? Instead of arguing you could say "I don't get it", then I'd explain or attempt to or we could agree to disagree instead of acting like children. But no, I'm a luddite. That's the easy way out to avoid thinking. That must be it. A programmer that hates technology. Makes sense.
mark merrens wrote: How is this any worse than maintaining that blind luck and chance are a better arbiter?
You really are blind man. You need to step away from computers for a while to see the rest of the world you're blind in if you honestly can't see it. Seriously man. This ain't an insult no matter how you want to take it, it's saying you really need to open your eyes. This does not mean one hates technology in doing do so but in not doing that one has a very limited view of the world that impossible to see behind a computer screen.
mark merrens wrote: Is your objection that technology is soulless and shouldn't be allowed to decide the fate of humans?
Yeah, I'm soulless for defending the only thing with a soul. And you're not because you think something soulless should exercise the right as to whether or not a soul should exist. 
Have fun not learning. Bye bye now!
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: something soulless should exercise the right as to whether or not a soul should exist.
couldn't resist jumping in.
T don't think anyone is suggesting a machine deciding who should die or who should live ins some sort of rise of the robots world, but rather allowing different actions to be taken depending on programmed criteria - such as the number of possible casualties.
Say you were driving down the street when a kid runs into the road in front of you, chasing a ball.
You swerve to avoid him (as you naturally would) ... and plough into a bus stop, killing two kids.
If you had known there were two kids at the bus stop, would you have swerved or not?
A computer could (potentially) make that call - kill one or two.
Of course, three may be a third option, drive off the cliff and kill you, the driver. Maybe, armed with the previous knowledge that's what you would have done - you would rather die than kill a child. Good call, probably.
But what, now, if your child is in the car?
Kill someone else's child? Kill two other children, or kill you and yours?
Tough one, eh?
Using a computer to take over the decision (which it can also computer faster than you) would depend on the programming - but it might (for example) determine that a cliff plunge would certainly be fatal, as would running the kid over in front of you, but driving onto the bus stop has a slightly higher chance of non-fatal injuries, and so is the right call.
Do you believe that we shouldn't install that sort of technology on the grounds that a machine doesn't have a soul?
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mark merrens wrote: Is your objection that technology is soulless and shouldn't be allowed to decide the fate of humans?
Actually I read that last part wrong, in a lightening fast attempt to move on...
Here's the short answer to that: yes!
So yay, my bad, twice.
Jeremy Falcon
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Just in case you can't resist because your ego is so massive. See, here you are.
Intimating that you are a luddite is not getting personal: it is an observation.
However, I do believe you are an arrogant twat incapable of understanding anything but your own perspective. Good luck with that: you'll need it in real life.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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mark merrens wrote: I don't see why anyone would be upset about this unless they simply reacted without thinking.
Robots may be emotionless and logical 'thinking' things, humans are not 
I wouldn't know why anyone would be upset over gay marriage, over sex before marriage, over women having rights, over having a tv in your house, over working on sundays... And those are things you can choose to do or not do. Still people get mad to the extent they are willing to kill others for it just because they think it's not how it's supposed to be.
It's an OO world.
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
}
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I'd rather it spent its cycles slowing the car.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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I believe the assumption is that it is beyond that - the accident is going to happen.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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