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Sander Rossel wrote: Would they own the ideas of the libraries as well?
Yes - depending on whether the libraries themselves were unique or just an implementation of existing ideas.
e.g. if you wrote a maths library to perform various mathematical functions, then you couldn't take the source code and use it yourself, but you could write another maths library based on your knowledge, because maths libraries pre-existed your development of one.
But if you wrote something unique then reproducing even the idea could be an issue.
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"Ideas" are NOT patentable ... only HOW they are implemented.
You cannot patent a "light bulb" (though a "patent troll" might try) ... tungsten wire vs halogen vs sodium vs mercury, etc ... that's something different. There is always room for a better mouse trap.
Renaming class names, variables, etc. won't help you ... courts will look at "code patterns" at the "byte code" or machine level to make a determination if a copyright was violated. The same "constants" in a program can make this particularly easy. Of course, "experts" will always need to be brought in.
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This also depends to some extent on the nature of your contract. I've been a developer for more years than I care to remember, but I have always been very careful to ensure that copyright in the code remained with me (except for very specific contracts).
In the UK at least, code is considered a creative work for copyright purposes, so unless your contract of employment explicitly states that anything you write on company time, using company equipment, becomes the property of (and the copyright therein also becomes the property of) the company, then you retain all the intellectual property rights.
These days, of course, most employers are aware of this and structure their contracts accordingly, but this certainly wasn't the case generally until quite recently.
Now I work for my own company, this isn't much of a problem 8)
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This is in my current contract. Anything I create using company resources, on company time, is sole property of the client I'm on contract with.
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem
Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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Most of the companies I have worked for cover that in the contract of employment: they own the rights to everything you produce while working for them - and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well, but that is probably difficult to enforce in a court. Lawyers would enjoy the profits of trying though.
If you are at work when you do any work on them, they own it. Taking it home without permission would be theft and could be enforced pretty easily: if it came to court, you'd almost certainly lose.
On good terms with your boss? Explain and ask him for permission!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Related to R&D:
Anything related to your position while a Federal (US) government employee is owned by the US Government; similar rules for many large companies.
It makes sense: the US Gov't point of view is that you are using knowledge gained while employed by them, so the creation of the knowledge is their property.
This all comes about, actually, as a consequence of the rules/laws that a Federal Employee is not permitted (aside from wages, etc.) from profiting from his association with the government. This extends to gifts from vendors (beyond, perhaps, a cup of coffee or very cheap pen).
For a period of time, due to some scandals in congress, rules (=laws) were enacted of a nature whereby a Federal Employee could not earn money form speaking, even if totally unrelated to their work. This law, naturally, excluded senators and congressmen. It has since been fixed - only applying to work-related material (it's owned by the people and you cannot charge them for what is already theirs).
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: so the creation of the knowledge is their property
So when going out of employment you should forget everything you learned while employed? That's a bit hard... Unless you're with the MIB 
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If I recall correctly, there was some sort of time limit. It may have been as short as when one's gov't employment is terminated (which is what would happen if you violated the rules).
For private sector, it's likely in the contract that one cannot make of use of their intellectual property for some set period. The rest buys Porsche's for Intellectual Property Lawyers.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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OriginalGriff wrote: and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
That's ridiculous... And, as you say, almost impossible to check.
Of course you shouldn't write articles while employed... 
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Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs!
I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs! |
They pay for x hours per month, so anything produced in those x hours can be theirs. What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
OriginalGriff wrote: I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look...
Doesn't sound like a company I would want to be working for...
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Do you get overtime payments if you work more than that?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yep. Or I wouldn't be working overtime 
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Lucky devil!
I haven't had paid overtime for decades! 
One company gave me an unexpected pay rise - and a generous one- which purely-by-accident just happened to move me above the 'you don't get paid overtime' threshold... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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To me it's simple, I sign a contract for 40 hours and a salary both my employer and I see fit. That's a salary for 40 hours, not 45 or 50. If I do work 45 or 50 hours I expect to be compensated accordingly.
That said, I do all my work related study in my own time. When my company decided to use Entity Framework I spent some hours at home figuring out how that stuff works.
I'm also not to uptight about working an exact 8 hours a day (like today I wanted to finish something and stayed 15 minutes longer) or getting every extra minute compensated.
And it depends on the employer. If they're getting uptight about something then so will I
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Sander Rossel wrote: What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
It is if you're doing work that competes with your employers line of business.
I have it written into my contract that I'm not allowed to do other work in the same line of business. Unnecessarily though as it's already in the law.
They can't lay any claims to code you write that's not relevant to them though. What's relevant is obviously a grey area.
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Agreed on that. I was replying to the following:
OriginalGriff wrote: and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I think it's totally an employers business what I do in my spare time as long as it concerns them. For example if I drink too much, party too hard or practice extreme sports, and as a result call in sick from work every monday or at least a month a year etc. In the Netherlands the employer pays for sick employees. And they cost A LOT!
Another example is studying (or absolutely no studying!) during my private time.
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Sander Rossel wrote: What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
That isn't true even in a general way. Certainly not in the US and probably most everywhere else as well.
Lets go through the reasonable cases.
- You commit a felony hate crime Saturday night and the press come knocking at your work to ask about you on Monday. You get fired right then.
- You have a written contract with an company, you are not even an employee, but the contract states that any work in the financial industry belongs to them (any work, any time) and further there is a morals clause that specifically allows them to terminate you if you commit any serious crime. And you fail to meet one or both.
And the unreasonable ones.
- Drugs. You do something Saturday nite and get tested Monday. And you are fired Tuesday for drug use.
- The boss doesn't like you much but keeps you around because he isn't much of a manager, but he did see you on a date with his daughter on Saturday night - so you get fired Saturday.
- You write a letter to the newspaper that gets published on sunday but expressing a political view opposite that of your boss, and you get fired Monday.
- You get a tattoo on Saturday because you have been cancer free for 10 years. You boss doesn't like tattoos, so...
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Yeah, I already commented somewhere that anything you do in your private time, but influences your boss' time is your boss' business.
Most of what you say doesn't hold true in the Netherlands though. You need a VERY good reason to fire an employee, getting a tattoo or not getting along is no good reason...
If you really want to fire an employee (especially when he's been with the company for some time) you better start building a dossier and document every reason to fire that employee. All of them added up might be a good reason, although it's probably still going to cost you a lot of money to have him fired.
If you own a small company with little profit a bad employee can literally ruin you and there's little you can do...
My dad's employer has a few employees who have been sick for at least two years (you know, they do some lifting and strain their back or something) and they're still paying for those people (they can't be fired).
Things work a little different here than in America / (sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse) 
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Sander Rossel wrote: Most of what you say doesn't hold true in the Netherlands though
Fair enough.
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OriginalGriff wrote: ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I had a contract that said that. I queried it - what about PooperPig? "don't be silly, of course that's fine - we just mean work related to what you do in this company"
"Good oh!" quoth I "then change the contract wording."
It took about three or four drafts before I was happy to sign - even though it wouldn't really make a blind bit of difference because, as I understand it, the signature is only absolute proof you have read that copy of the contract - you are still bound by a contract in law regardless as to whether you have signed it, if you continue to work there, unless you can prove that the contract had not completed negotiations. So if they'd just said "tough!" I'd have no option but to accept it or leave.
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My contract contains that but I'm pretty sure it's legally unenforceable outside things done while working. The implication would be that you are working 24/7 and that violates the EU labour rules.
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IBM and another company I worked for once had this provision, but it was eventually admitted and tested in a court case that such claim of ownership of what the employee does on his own time and with his own equipment is invalid.
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As others are saying if written on company time then they own it, but I say how is it licensed? If a piece of software is available to others under a certain license I would say it applies to you as well.
Along with Antimatter and Dark Matter they've discovered the existence of Doesn't Matter which appears to have no effect on the universe whatsoever!
Rich Tennant 5th Wave
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Legally, you probably can't do that (depends, check contract, I've had one that said I could take 30% of the code).
In practice, you can. No one's going to know, and no one's getting hurt so no one has any reason to try to find out if you did anything.
Or at least that was until you posted about it under your real name. Now there would be reason to suspect you.
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