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W∴ Balboos wrote: You're leaving half your crop to the more traditional* farming methods
* Soaking them with toxins related very closely to nerve gas.
Doesn't sound very appetizing. 
So I take it GMO is only half a solution.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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See Below:
http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4782069/Re-Nature-fights-back.aspx[^]
Some other solutions are referenced, therein (a bit in this thread, actually)
But seriously, if we didn't expend so much vegetable protein fattening animals for their meat, we'd have an enormous increase in available food without changing any farming conditions. An inevitable future, but I would care to predict when.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: if we didn't expend so much vegetable protein fattening animals for their meat, we'd have an enormous increase in available food without changing any farming conditions.
Where I live in Isan (tribal area in NE Thailand) we don't specifically grow crops to feed cows or buffalo.
They forage along the banks of irrigation canals, along the side of tractor trails, in harvested rice paddies, etc. The cows are pretty skinny but they are healthy. The buffalo get pretty big on even these meager rations.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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The point (my point) is that to sustain the meat-eating economy found in so much of the industrialized world, you can't raise your cattle and buffaloes along the roadside. It could never even touch the current level of demand.
That's assuming there is any foliage left along the roadside!
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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We should really try not to mess with nature, we only f*** it up even more 
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to multiple Bacillus thuringiensis toxins
And we eat this stuff.
This should add fuel to the non-GMO fire.
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: to multiple Bacillus thuringiensis toxins
And we eat this stuff.
Doesn't sound very appetizing.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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That particular bacillus based toxin was picked because that's the stuff used by "Organic Farmers"
Oh dear. Now what will you do?
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Through selective breeding and cross-breeding we've been genetically modifying organisms for thousands of years[^].
The sweetcorn we eat are GMOs. Domesticated cattle are GMOs. We eat GMOs all the time.
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viaducting wrote: The sweetcorn we eat are GMOs. Domesticated cattle are GMOs. We eat GMOs all the time.
Well, I don't. I actually stay away from corn, choose non-GMO products (but who really knows if they are) and refuse to eat any beef other than from 100% grass fed cows raised by the local farmers around here whom I personally know. But given the cost of the beef, I don't eat much beef!
viaducting wrote: Through selective breeding and cross-breeding we've been genetically modifying organisms for thousands of years[^].
True, but there's a difference between that and corn that's had specific genomes added to its DNA.
Marc
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Those who eat organic-only foods can do so only because most of us do not. In places without pesticides, vermin get half of the crop, which is smaller to begin with without the 'chemical' fertilizers.
Now - with the world population in the Seven Billion range - how do you propose to feed everyone? Plant breeding the 'old fashioned way' is way too slow and chancy.
We can use other traditional methods to increase food production:
Chop down more rain-forests so we can plant crops on more land.
Spray lots more pesticides and 'chemical fertilizers'
Increase the food supply by not producing meat (10:1 feed:meat protein ratio)
Hope for a devastating plague to lower the population
Or, everyone's favorite
WAR !
So - take your pick. Remember the scale of things. What will you do?
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Those who eat organic-only foods can do so only because most of us do not. In places without pesticides, vermin get half of the crop, which is smaller to begin with without the 'chemical' fertilizers.
Well, I will happily admit that not only am I not an expert in this field, but I certainly haven't studied the statistics to speak about it other than hearsay. That said, I'm surrounded by organic farmers and I have read a lot of information and talked to my farmer friends (some of them are my poker buddies, so I get to hear all sorts of stories) that with proper integration of different crops and healthy land management, they don't have pest issues.
Also, do we really need to be eating so much meat? Most of the non-organic corn around here goes to feeding cattle -- they just let it dry up on the stalk before harvesting it. Waste of land and resources, in my opinion.
So, an alternative that you didn't mention: people need to start eating lower down on the food chain: there's a lot more nutrients packed into a vegetable or fruit or leaf at a lot less cost than eating a piece of meat.
But like I said, I've only been peripherally paying attention to all this stuff, so my objective evidence is not immediately at hand and I don't want to start a lounge war!
Marc
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I need to agree with pretty much all you've written. It's been over forty years since I've eaten any kind of meat (or derivatives thereof), although my motives are not directly related to this conversation.
I've seen some of the propositions for how one does the organic farming - and alas, much as it pains me - I admit that it takes the factory farming to be able to produce the massive amounts of food needed.
My only little garden, oddly enough, is quasi-organic. I don't spray any pesticides but, although I put in manure an compost my garbage (compost is amazing), when I set each plant into the garden, it's on top of a dollop of synthetic fertilizers.
But - my little 10x10 is only valid for this because it's not really sustenance crops. It's tomatoes, eggplant, and lots of hot peppers. Due to Hurricane Sandy, I didn't have a garden last year - but didn't go hungry, either. In most of the world, people don't have that luxury.
Here's an interesting viewpoint to carry with you when listening to discussions of all sorts: how much their ideas are biased because their bellies are full each night. It's a lot easier to be idealistic when there's no life-and-death price tag attached.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I prefer option 6... education & birth control.
People need to understand the logic of: If food is scarce and expensive than they should only have 1 or 2 children because they will have a better chance of feeding them instead of 6 children with the hope that 1 or 2 will survive. This applies to all humans - regardless of race, religion or nationality.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. ~ George Washington
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True, but folk get nervous when the modification is done by "artificial" means. I have heard folk say that they don’t know what is in the genes of the GMO crops, as if they know what is in the genes of the “natural” crops.
Just because the code works, it doesn't mean that it is good code.
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viaducting wrote: selective breeding and cross-breeding
Are not the same as making changes in a piece of code you do not completely understand. Breeding is like using the copy-function in the UI.
The scientific name of our species is "homo sapiens sapiens". It should have been "homo maxima superbia".
viaducting wrote: We eat GMOs all the time.
No, we don't.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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The only weird thing about that is how long it took before the problem manifested itself.
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I'm putting together a website for a not-for-profit group that would like to solicit donations; that has sent me on a quest to find a reliable provider that does not gouge or extort. Paypal is the standard, but they have high fees and a reputation for being unreliable and freezing accounts on seeming whims.
So, I am soliciting recommendations for companies in the US that provide such services. Their eventual plan is to solicit donations and, at certain levels, provide premiums (bumperstickers, that sort of thing.) An API would be nice, but I'll settle for reasonably good documentation and ease of use. Are there any you would recommend, or should I just go with Paypal?
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(not really an answer)
For donations, I would use PayPal for the simple reason that it is well known and used and accepted by the "general population".
I'd rather be phishing!
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That's what I was thinking, but my contract contact asked me to shop around a bit.
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It looks like Paypal is not going to be an option: because of recent changes in US tax law, Paypal now requires that donation accounts can ONLY be opened by legally chartered non-profit corporations.
This puts the group I'm working with in a bind: they want to raise money so they can go through the legal hassles of incorporating as a non-profit, but they are not allowed to raise money (through Paypal, at least) because they are not incorporated. I believe the phrase is Catch-22. The work-around seems to be setting up a merchant account, but that apparently requires having a verifiable business.
So... alternatives?
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Amazon Payments
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Obscurum per obscurius.
Ad astra per alas porci.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur .
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I'll second this, just be sure to keep up on your security certificates or it might take a small war to get access back. The guys over at Bundle of Holding ran into that.
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JustGiving is popular in the UK - they are not free though! (In UK £15 to register each month for charities plus 5% of donations)
I know there is a US version too (JustGiving Inc.??)
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CHill60 wrote: £15 to register each month for charities plus 5% of donations
I would stay away from people gouging charities like that. Why are they entitled to 5% of the donation in addition to a monthly registration fee. It seems excessive to me. 
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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