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Albert Holguin wrote: which doesn't make sense to me
At least when I was in college the courses necessary to get an electrical engineering degree did nothing at all to prepare one to wire a house much less something like a restaurant or office correctly.
Didn't actually prepare one to do much at all in the real world for that matter.
And although good intentions are admirable they will not prevent a house fire caused by incorrectly installing an electrical system.
In comparison I am rather certain as well that I would not want a civil engineer building a house and very definitely wouldn't want them building a bridge if their only experience was a degree from a university. Doesn't matter what university either.
FYI Texas requires "Engineers" to pass a test and to have some real world experience as well before they can use that term.
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Electrical engineering college material makes sure you understand electricity, at least it should, if it didn't, you should ask for a refund. I do agree it won't teach you everything about wiring a house, it should allow you to quickly learn what you need to if you decided to get into that line of work. There really isn't much to wiring a house really... the seven year apprenticeship was set up for getting an 18 year old kid fresh out of high school and getting him trained to be an electrician, not for an electrical engineer to learn the ins/outs of wiring a house.
jschell wrote: FYI Texas requires "Engineers" to pass a test and to have some real world experience as well before they can use that term.
This is most states... I'm not against testing, but to categorize an electrical engineer in the same way as you would someone fresh out of high school is pretty extreme (reeks of union/political moves).
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Albert Holguin wrote: it should allow you to quickly learn what you need to if you decided to get into that line of work
So in college exactly which class taught you the following?
- Exact gauge of wire to run to the kitchen light, the kitchen oven and the dryer? And the type of wire that meets code?
- Where in a joist you can run a wire?
- How many and far apart electrical sockets are needed to meet code?
- How do you run a wire around a pipe? Around a corner?
- What sort of junction box do you need in a bathroom versus against a cement wall versus in drywall?
- What paper work do you need to present when the home is inspected?
Myself when I took my classes in Electrical Engineering I learned a great deal about how to prove what an idealized magnetic/electrical fields should do, how an ideal refrigerator should work and a lot about calculus and quite a bit more about literature, social theory and psychology. Far as I can recall I had about two semesters total of "electrical" labs one of which involved building a bread boarded computer and another which built trivial amplifiers. I got through the later because my two lab partners were 'working engineers' whose company insisted they go back to school to get a real degree.
Now it might be quite possible that an above average person doesn't need 4 years of actually working as an electrician to do the job. But by definition the vast majority of people are not in fact above average. And it seems rather unfair to allow someone's house to burn down because someone insists that they are in fact the exception to the rule, based on nothing more than their word that they are above average.
Not to mention of course that just because someone is familiar with some aspect of science that that means that they are completely competent to undertake everything else. If that were the case then everyone would need do nothing more than train as a mathematician and everything else would follow.
Same holds for a civil engineer. I simply do not want to drive across a bridge built by someone who did nothing more than pass a test regardless of how certain that individual is that they are competent to build that bridge.
Albert Holguin wrote: I'm not against testing, but to categorize an electrical engineer in the same way as you would someone fresh out of high school
All I can say is that you must have had completely different classes than me in college. I have done some electrical work around the home and read quite a bit about what it takes to be up to code in doing such work and there was absolutely nothing in the classes that I took that had anything to do with that. And doing the practice is quite a bit different than learning theory. It is also quite a bit different to mess about ones house versus actually doing the same in the 'real' world for someone that you don't even know and who is depending on you do to it correctly.
Other than that learning the practice is not that hard but it takes time because one must encounter all of the cases that might occur in the real world. For example one might need to deal with buried cables or overhead wires. Or acquiring right of way. Or dealing with water in unexpected places. Or recognizing that some product is substandard. And yes a high school graduate who is enthusiastic can in fact learn all that with experience. And someone with a bunch of theory under their belt isn't going to learn that by studying up for a written test.
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jschell wrote: Other than that learning the practice is not that hard but it takes time because one must encounter all of the cases that might occur in the real world. For example one might need to deal with buried cables or overhead wires. Or acquiring right of way. Or dealing with water in unexpected places. Or recognizing that some product is substandard. And yes a high school graduate who is enthusiastic can in fact learn all that with experience. And someone with a bunch of theory under their belt isn't going to learn that by studying up for a written test.
Takes you 7 years to learn that? Same thing with the whole wire gauge comments above, that's all small potatoes stuff that wouldn't take you very long to pickup. Pretty sure all that has to do more with the union controlling who gets licensed than how long it takes someone to learn something.
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Albert Holguin wrote: Takes you 7 years to learn that?
Are you claiming that it would take a high school graduate that long to learn that?
Albert Holguin wrote: Pretty sure all that has to do more with the union controlling who gets licensed
than how long it takes someone to learn something.
Quite possible. But a electrical engineering degree doesn't teach one how to do it either.
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Most work like that *is* controlled by unions.
In many states the use of a Car computer Diagnostic reader is free. It's a minimum $49 just for it to get hooked to your car in Calif.
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Unfortunately, I know it is controlled by unions... that's what makes it worse, because in those cases there's no rhyme or reason other than the unions either getting a cut or keeping tight control. I'd be willing to bet they push all electricians into joining the unions or else they won't get licensed.
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Albert Holguin wrote: I'd be willing to bet they push all electricians into joining the unions or else
they won't get licensed.
The reality is nothing that one does can insure that licensed professionals are actually competent to do the work. So at best one strives to make it more likely.
And as with everything involving humans politics are part of it.
But despite both of those allowing someone to just start doing it solely because they think they are competent is not going to work either. So claiming that the current system is inappropriate is not an excuse to completely eliminate the system.
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No, but I've been volunteering with Camp Quality for a decade, and it's been wonderful to make a tangible difference in the lives of children living with cancer and their families...
I think more people (particularly blokes) should volunteer their time to whatever charitable causes they deem to be worthwhile, because it's been my experience that there are never enough male volunteers to go around!!
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_Damian S_ wrote: children living with cancer and their families
Sorry -= I know it is a serious subject, and I do seriously admire the work you do, but y'need to rephrase that 
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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Possibly, but it's word for word from the CQ dominant thought.
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LoL. That's cool though. That's pretty much what I look for. Things that I feel can make a real difference in other people's lives.
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem
Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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I used to do some contracting work on the side, not exactly volunteering, but close enough.
So the owner of the shop used to define projects with an amazing ability to drive me nuts.
Imagine the healthcare.gov website. His approach would go something like this:
"It's very simple project, a couple of hours tops. Just add an drop-down with some insurance companies and when the user selects one, display and compare your plan with their stuff. Done!"
To all protests that this is a major task he would say:
"What? It's just a goddamn drop-down!"
Since then I kinda prefer a mostly professional environment.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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You are doing great but don't do that for along time otherwise people will get used to your "volunteer" stuff especially in the field of development they will use you alot.
I have done several volunteer works to develop websites for friends when i was in college and i also do my own stuff which doesn't pay also.
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If i can learn something new(from the masters :P) and if the job is fun (i don't count Web development as fun) why not ?
Microsoft ... the only place where VARIANT_TRUE != true
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The other side.....
You need to ensure that you pick the right organization if you are going to work for free. There needs to be someone that will appreciate what you do and deliver what you need (design guidelines, requirements etc).
If you do not have this you will do a lot of work and then be stuck with complaints. Even worse, a lot of work done that will not be used. If you have appreciation for you time and a willingness to participate then it can be a pleasure.
In my opinion it is always better to get some cash upfront to ensure that everybody is committed. This needs to be amount that is felt. A non profit may not be able to pay $ 5000 but they can pay $ 500 and it will feel the same to them as the $ 5000 to larger company. Make clear this is $ 5000 worth of work for $ 500 and you should be fine, with benefits for all.
Remember, if they are not willing to pay one cent then in general your work and time is worth less than one cent to them.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
~ Albert Einstein
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That's understandable. In this case, the site is already mostly put together. The design is complete, most of the pages exist. They just need a few enhancements added. They did offer to pay, but given that there isn't much work involved, I told them not to worry about it. And I'm in contact throughout each day with one of the owners, very clear communication on what needs to happen. 
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem
Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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In 2007 I retired and moved to the small coastal town of Lyme Regis, Dorset, UK. After almost 40 years of working with computers I found it difficult to let go and so volunteered my skills. It has been a great way of becoming part of the community, but there is a warning. A lot of retired people who volunteer find that quite quickly they have to back-off. It is very easy to sell your services for nothing. I have helped the town build up its tourism's IT infrastructure, web sites, webcams, public touchscreens, event screens etc. It has now got to the point where it's almost a full time job so I want to back-off. The catch-22 is that, I'm the only one who knows how all this was put together (lots of bespoke code). It would be very difficult for another company to take it over, they almost certainly would want to replace it and the cost would be prohibitive and difficult for the town to fund.
The town council insists on paying me a small retainer but this just means I am now contracted whereas I want to be retired. The idea was that, on retirement, I would spend a couple of years practising like mad on my Fender Strat so that I would be as good as Clapton, however after 40 years it's difficult not to get drawn to the computer keyboard rather than the guitar. Pathetic I know.
So, if there's anyone near Lyme Regis who would like to share the load, let me know. There might even be some money in it.
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I worked for a catholic mission hospital at a price which were way below what i
normally asked for and get it.My support extended for an long long overdue
time that i do for other clients.
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No, I haven't seen that before. Thanks for the link!
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem
Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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Sure thing! I was hoping to help too, but as my ability to code is lacking I just started doing Habitat. 
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I've done some volunteer website work for different non-profits around the US and its been a blast. I normally go through http://www.npower.org/[^] to find different non-profits. It's a wonderful site to help non-profits find IT people to help them.
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Thank you for that, I'll look into it right now!
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem
Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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My new neighbor got a habitat for humanity home. They drive a new Mercedes.
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