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Quote: or when those who are qualified to examine the evidence cannot agree on the cause.
Uh oh. I hear a global warming debate coming. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Richard Deeming wrote: The only time we need to be concerned is when someone claims that evidence or proof exists but cannot be examined,
But to be fair when was that last time that you did a scientific test that proved the authenticity, for yourself, for the dinosaur bones in your local museum? When was the last time that you even applied to the museum to do that?
Or what about dissecting a cadaver to check the that that thumping in the chest really, really is a heart.
The reality is that the vast, vast majority of 'science' that even scientists accept is based on faith and nothing more. Much less the general population. They haven't done the tests. They haven't even read most of the literature. They don't know the people involved. They don't even know the processes involved. After all do hear surgeons know what sort of review process a civil engineer goes through to get a bridge built? Presumably neither believes the other uses magic but that doesn't mean that their understanding of what the other does is any different than presuming it to be little more than magic.
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jschell wrote: The reality is that the vast, vast majority of 'science' that even scientists accept is based on faith and nothing more.
Not quite. It would be based on faith if the evidence was not available to be examined. In all of the cases you've mentioned, the evidence is available; it's just that not everyone has the necessary background in the subject to interpret it.
The days when any one person could understand the entirety of human knowledge are long gone. We all specialize in particular fields, so we all have to take someone else's word for it when it comes to subjects that we don't understand. It's just a question of whether we choose to believe a group of people who actively try to disprove their own conclusions and fail, or a group of people who argue that to question their conclusions is blasphemous.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote: Not quite. It would be based on faith if the evidence was not available to be
examined
That would be valid if it was what I said.
I said that the practitioners are themselves accepting many, many things on faith. It has nothing to do with what they could do. It has everything to do with their mental state in regards to what they believe.
Richard Deeming wrote: It's just a question of whether we choose to believe a group of people who
actively try to disprove their own conclusions and fail,
Exactly - belief. Nothing else.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote: So my fundamental believe is not in evolution but that evolution fits into a larger puzzle and that only time will tell which it is.
You "believe"? God gave you a brain. Stop being religious, and use what has been given.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote: <layer>evolution fits into a larger puzzle and that only time will tell which it is.
We already know what it's goal is; survival of the most well-adapted beings. Since it requires elimination, one can safely say that humans have stopped evolving. We're close to being a real "homo sapiens sapiens" (an arrogant human) by taking matter (or genes) into our own hands.
..and we also know how well that goes 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Nice, an ad hominem attack and a suggestion that I was making a religious argument. More fuel to my point that the evolutionist are just as bad as the creationists.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote: Nice, an ad hominem attack
It wasn't an attack on the person.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote: <layer>and a suggestion that I was making a religious argument
It certainly looks like one to me.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote: More fuel to my point that the evolutionist are just as bad as the creationists.
Whatever label, there's always people who actually refuse to think. Good and bad are als merely labels, and they're usually religously colored.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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I followed a coursera course on the history of Humankind.
When the teacher explains what is science he calls it "The discovery of ignorance". In a good way.
The birth of Science is when humankind started to dare to say : "I don't know but let's figure out".
Before science, religion "knew it all".
By definition evolutionism is from religion, and religion is not driven by doubt, but by certainty.
Only science embraces doubt.
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"The average woman spends 16 months of her life crying"
I wonder if that includes the time as baby/child.
The good thing about pessimism is, that you are always either right or pleasently surprised.
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A lot will also depend on who she ends up marrying.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Dalek Dave wrote: Shark Bay in Australia is now called “Safety Beach”. So it is.[^]
Ah yes, if you'd been anywhere near the surrounding suburbs, you'd realize just funny the name is. The Mornington Peninsula has been a spectacularly volatile hotspot at new-years-eve for decades now. Shhhhh! We just keep the name so we can continue to lure attract tourists in for a bit of er, 'entertainment'. wholesome family fun. I'd hazard a guess that there's actually more people hurt there every year than any beach you can name around here that does have sharks. (it's about 31 miles from where I sit presently)
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You cannot show me the evolution of man from apes - it cannot be repeated.
I'm sorry, but I only believe things that I can observe.
I'm just a scientist that way.
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MehGerbil wrote: You cannot show me the evolution of man from apes
Mainly because Man didn't evolve from apes; both species evolved from a common ape-like ancestor.
MehGerbil wrote: I only believe things that I can observe.
That's fine. As OG said earlier[^], evolution will continue whether you believe in it or not. 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Quote: both species evolved from a common ape-like ancestor.
Perhaps you missed the part where the OP said, "it cannot be repeated."
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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People who do real science know the importance of the repeatability of an experiment.
When I worked in the pharmaceutical industry if we'd of done science the way the average evolutionist does science I would have literally been thrown in jail. Funny, but when you get a pharmaceutical company on the line for a billion dollar line of drugs science becomes the 'observable', 'repeatable', 'falsifiable' kind of science.
However, when some geek is blowing smoke about something that supposedly happened 500 million years ago nobody cares that it isn't observable, isn't repeatable, and isn't falsifiable - because truth be told, it doesn't matter.
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MehGerbil wrote: it isn't observable, isn't repeatable, and isn't falsifiable
Oh really?
http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutionexplained/a/ObservedEvolution.htm[^]
Or are you claiming that evolution happens in animals, but not in humans because we're special?
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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As I stated before, I've no problem calling repeatable, observable, and falsifiable phenomena as science. So to the extent that evolution is observable, I believe it. The idea that Creationists believe that species are static is a straw man.
For example: I'm not aware of a single Creationist that holds that modern dogs didn't 'evolve' form wolves. That is significant deviation.
However, to make the claim that some change in genetic frequency (wolf -> poodle) says anything at all about the larger long time picture is nothing but unfounded conjecture.
Here is a little illustration:
Let's say I claimed that I'm an investment wizard that can double any amount of money you give me in 24hrs.
To test my claim you give me $5 and I give you $10 back the next day.
To test my claim you give me $20 and I give you $40 back the next day.
Are you ready to give me $100,000.00 cash yet?
If you'd apply that same skepticism to the merchants of the religion of evolution you'd have a crystal clear understanding of my perspective.
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MehGerbil wrote: Are you ready to give me $100,000.00 cash yet?
Yeah, sure. Just send me your bank details and I'll transfer the money.
The main difference is that you are a concious actor; the initial results could be a deception designed to take my money. Evolution is a natural process, with no conciousness behind it; it's not going to suddenly decide to change the rules part way through.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Don't get tangled up in the analogy.
There are many physical processes that work the same way.
Example #1:
Day 1: I can add a table spoon of salt into the cup of water and dissolve it.
Day 2: I can add a table spoon of salt into the cup of water and dissolve it.
Day 3: I can add a table spoon of salt into the cup of water and dissolve it.
Day 4: I can add a table spoon of salt into the cup of water and it doesn't dissolve anymore because of saturation.
Now a fruit fly might live to be 2 days old and if he were a good scientist he'd claim that two table spoons may be dissolved in a cup of water over a two day period. He'd be correct. Other fruit flies could test his claim, they could observe it repeatedly.
If he were a frothing at the mouth evolutionist bot he'd claim that you could dissolve table spoons of salt into a single glass of water every day for 16 billion years. He'd pick on the other fruit flies for not believing that this process could go on the same way forever. He'd be wrong.
Example #2:
When it came to sending a man to the moon we had the best scientists in the world working on the problem. They did lots of maths, lots of physics, and lots of hard thinking but they didn't send a man to the moon until they did what?
The didn't send a man to the moon until a monkey went up first.
The reason they didn't send a man up first because despite the best minds in the world working on it they were unwilling to risk a human life until all the theory had been observed - repeatedly.
Because when it comes right on down to it there is no replacement for actually observing something.
Conclusion
If you've got some observable, repeatable, falsifiable stuff you'd like to sell me as science I'm buying; however, I've no time for some pinhead going on and on about something he didn't see happen, cannot be repeated, and is not falsifiable - I mean he can talk about it, but when he calls it 'science' I just laugh.
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MehGerbil wrote: I've no time for some pinhead going on and on about something he didn't see happen, ...
Can we directly observe chemical bonds forming? If not, would that prevent us from developing and exploiting chemistry?
MehGerbil wrote: ... cannot be repeated, ...
Only due to time constraints. Give the right people a lab and funding for a few billion years, and the process could almost certainly be repeated.
MehGerbil wrote: ... is not falsifiable
A common misconception.
There are numerous ways in which evolutionary theory can be tested and, if found wanting, would have to be rejected. Here are just a few:
- Charles Darwin himself proposed a rather strong test of evolution: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
- Famed biologist J. B. S. Haldane, when asked what evidence could disprove evolution, mentioned "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian era."
- Biologists had long conjectured that human chromosome number two was the result of a fusion of two corresponding chromosomes in most other primates. If DNA analysis of these chromosomes had shown that this was not the case, then modern evolutionary theory would indeed be drawn into question. This "fusion hypothesis" was indeed confirmed, rather dramatically, in 1993 (and further in 2005), by the identification of the exact point of fusion.
- Modern DNA sequencing technology has provided a rigorous test of evolution, far beyond the wildest dreams of Charles Darwin. In particular, comparison of DNA sequences between organisms can be used as a measure of relatedness, and can further be used to actually construct the most likely "family tree" hierarchical relationship between a set of organisms. Such analyses have been done, and the results so far dramatically confirm the family tree that had been earlier constructed solely based on comparisons of body structure and biochemistry.
Evolution is considered falsifiable because it can make predictions that, were they contradicted by the evidence, would falsify evolution. Several kinds of evidence could falsify evolution, such as the fossil record showing no change over time, confirmation that mutations are prevented from accumulating, or observations showing organisms being created supernaturally or spontaneously. Many of Darwin's ideas and assertions of fact have been falsified as evolutionary science has developed and has continued to confirm his central concepts.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote: Can we directly observe chemical bonds forming? If not, would that prevent us from developing and exploiting chemistry?
We might not be able to 'see' the bonds but we can see the result in a repeatable, observable, and falsifiable manner. The salient point (giggle) is that we can observe it in real time.
Richard Deeming wrote: Only due to time constraints. Give the right people a lab and funding for a few billion years, and the process could almost certainly be repeated.
True, but then if we had a time machine I could take you back to ancient Palestine and we could witness the resurrection of Jesus Christ together. I'd say both of our claims there are equivalent since neither will ever happen.
As for the list of quotes you Googled, they are all easily answered; however, I don't care to get into a Google quote war. (For example, the first quote by Darwin would be countered by the development of punctuated equilibrium. See: Do it quick.[^]
Instead of a quote war I'd like to cut to the chase and point out that you're no longer arguing based upon something you actually understand. You are now appealing to your priests to answer for you even though you have a paper thin understanding of the claims they are making. None of these things are things you've tested for yourself - you don't understand the science - you're taking someone else's word for it.
In short, there is next to no difference between your approach to the truth and that of a 5 year old sitting in Sunday School. Both the 5 year old and yourself are pointing to the truth givers (Sunday School Teacher, Richard Dawkins) and having that authority figure answer for you.
It ain't a good way to live.
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MehGerbil wrote: None of these things are things you've tested for yourself - you don't understand the science - you're taking someone else's word for it.
Given the vast caucus of human knowledge, the days when one person could fully understand everything are long gone. Since we can't personally know, understand, and test every scientific theory, we have to take someone's word for it.
The difference is, I am taking the word of a large group of respected scientists who have specialized in this field, on the understanding that the evidence is available and can be examined by anyone with sufficient knowledge, and that the scientists themselves are actively trying to disprove their own theories. After all, you don't get a Nobel prize for agreeing with everyone else!
The child sitting in Sunday School is taking the word of a teacher, who is taking the word of a priest, who was taking the word of their priest, etc., going back thousands of years. The "evidence" to support their claims is never available for public scrutiny, and cannot be subjected to scientific examination. They are actively discouraged from questioning the claims, because to do so is blasphemous.
There's a world of difference between those two positions. It's a shame you can't see that.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote: There's a world of difference between those two positions. It's a shame you can't see that.
In 1950 the consensus among the scientists of the world was that homosexuality was a mental illness.
In fact, the American Psychiatric Association didn't declassify it as a mental illness until 1973.
So in 1950 if you were to make the claim that homosexuality was natural I could use your own words in response:
Richard Deeming wrote: The difference is, I am taking the word of a large group of respected scientists who have specialized in this field, on the understanding that the evidence is available and can be examined by anyone with sufficient knowledge, and that the scientists themselves are actively trying to disprove their own theories. After all, you don't get a Nobel prize for agreeing with everyone else!
If that quote doesn't work for the status of homosexuality in 1950 than it doesn't hold for evolutionary theory in 2013 either. This can be cited for a dozen 'facts' which the scientific community agreed upon which later turned out to be false.
I've illustrated beyond doubt that scientific consensus really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not something is true.
Richard Deeming wrote: They are actively discouraged from questioning the claims, because to do so is blasphemous.
You mean, like the Sunday School teacher might log onto a technology forum and talk about how stupid other people are with what they believe? Go question evolution and see what you get called.
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MehGerbil wrote: In fact, the American Psychiatric Association didn't declassify it as a mental illness until 1973.
<SARCASM>
Wait, you mean they changed their views based on the evidence? That doesn't sound very sensible, does it? They should have just said, "our predecessors believed this to be the case, so we believe it as well".
</SARCASM>
MehGerbil wrote: I've illustrated beyond doubt that scientific consensus really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not something is true.
You've also illustrated beyond doubt that scientific consensus, unlike religious dogma, changes to reflect any new evidence.
Whilst there have been minor changes to the theory of evolution as new evidence has come to light, the central concept has not changed. That doesn't guarantee that's it's definitely "The Truth", but it's a good sign that the theory is robust. Unless and until significant new evidence is presented, evolution is the best tool we have to describe the variety of life on our planet.
And even if a new theory does emerge, it doesn't necessarily make the current theory worthless. Newton's theory of gravitation is still the best approach for any non-relativistic calculations, despite the fact that it has been superseded by general relativity.
MehGerbil wrote: You mean, like the Sunday School teacher might log onto a technology forum and talk about how stupid other people are with what they believe?
No, I mean like the teacher might start questioning whether every word in the bible has to be taken literally; whether transubstantiation is a real thing; whether the physical resurrection of their messiah is a core pre-requisite of their faith. Religions don't have a good track-record for dealing with heretics and apostates.
Not that science is perfect in that regard. There have certainly been scientists who have been shunned for their theories, only to be proven right at a later date. But that's more to do with the politics of the scientific community. The scientific method is built around the idea of challenging the consensus; it's just that individuals often find it hard to embrace that idea.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Okay, this would be an example of why I don't typically participate in these discussions.
People get really irrational when defending their mythologies.
The point about the American Psychiatric Association and their view on homosexuality was to illustrate that your logical fallacy (appeal to authority, appeal to masses) was demonstrably wrong. Instead of admitting the point you simply adopted the point (scientists may be wrong) and are now trumpeting it as a strength of science.
Unfortunately for you, I can still beat you there.
You see, you admit that the American Psychiatric Association can change their views and you admit in the same post that sometimes the truth is buried because that's more to do with the politics of the scientific community.
So when the APA held that homosexuality was a mental illness was it due to evidence or politics?
So when the APA changed their view on the topic was it due to evidence or politics?
The truth is, you don't actually know for sure either way.
You think they've got evidence that informs their ruling because that is what they tell you.
Your position on the APA and homosexuality is identical to a little boy believing his Sunday School teacher.
Incidentally, you may have the last word as I tire of the circles. 
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