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RyanDev wrote: The irony here is you can say the exact same thing, except for the bolded part, about religion.
Nope. I have never claimed blah blah blah...
Edit: Sorry, misread that part as "you say" instead of "you can say". 
I would disagree with that claim. Faith is not based on a foundation of evidence; you cannot show someone evidence to support your faith and allow them to examine it. And I don't have a problem with that, so long as we can agree that faith is not science, and vice-versa.
Also, the part you have highlighted is extremely important. Scientists are actively trying to disprove their own theories; religionists actively discourage people from questioning their beliefs. Given the choice, I will take the word of someone whose ideas have been rigorously tested over that of someone whose ideas cannot withstand scrutiny.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
modified 14-Nov-13 7:26am.
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Quote: Faith is not based on a foundation of evidence
To answer this I will have to break the rules and explain how religion benefits us.
One of the definitions[^] of evidence is actually, "ground for belief" so to be technical there is plenty of evidence (grounds for belief) that a creator exists.
Quote: you cannot show someone evidence to support your faith and allow them to examine it.
This is something I have discussed many, many times on this site (in the Soapbox granted) but this statement is not actually true. It is a very common belief among those who don't believe in a creator. However, in religion someone says, "If you want to know if God exists, here are the steps...", and that IS evidence that anyone in the world can examine for themselves. Now you might argue that not everyone will come to the same conclusion, which is true, and which also happens in science even. However, the evidence is there, has been there for thousands of years, and can be examined by anyone. It is repeatable and observable.
I actually find it quite ironic how similar religion and science really are. Of course, only people like myself who believe in both religion and science seem to see this connection but it is funny to see far wing religionists argue against far wing scientists because I can see that they both have so much in common.
Quote: Scientists are actively trying to disprove their own theories;
I have to disagree with that. No one is actively trying to disprove evolution, at least never that I have heard of. What they are doing is trying to find evidence to support that theory and you know very well that you can always find what you look for.
Quote: that of someone whose ideas cannot withstand scrutiny.
I assume you mean religion. Of course you know you can't prove religion wrong, at least not the part about there being a creator which is the topic of this thread. And I would argue that since religion has been around since the beginning it has withstand much more than just scrutiny. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: One of the definitions[^] of evidence is actually, "ground for belief"
Sorry, I should have specified that I meant scientific evidence[^].
RyanDev wrote: No one is actively trying to disprove evolution
Not true. Based on the highly scientific method  of "typing it into Google", millions of people are actively trying to disprove evolution.
But perhaps you meant to say that scientists are not actively trying to disprove evolution? The fact that science has already disproved several of Darwin's ideas would seem to disprove that suggestion.
Science doesn't just make a guess, cherry-pick evidence to support it, and then claim it to be the truth. [*] There is a rigorous process in place to ensure that all the evidence is taken into account. Great scientists aren't recognized for accepting the status-quo; they're recognized for challenging it and coming up with new theories which better fit the available evidence.
[*] Individual scientists might try this, especially if offered large sums of money, but the scientific community as a whole will generally spot the flaws and refute the biased theory pretty quickly.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Quote: Sorry, I should have specified that I meant scientific evidence[^].
Well, I think we could go at this all day. From your link, it says evidence which is empirical and empirical means from observation or experience so what I said still stands. I get it, we disagree.
Quote: millions of people are actively trying to disprove evolution.
Stop it!!!  There is no way there are millions of people working on this.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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MehGerbil wrote: If he were a frothing at the mouth evolutionist bot he'd claim that you could dissolve table spoons of salt into a single glass of water every day for 16 billion years. He'd pick on the other fruit flies for not believing that this process could go on the same way forever. He'd be wrong.
Very probably he is wrong.
But to be fair the fruit flies are not even trying to explain what they think is happening. Nor are they trying to understand why he is frothing at the mouth. Instead they do nothing but roll their eyes and say he is "wrong". Which of course does nothing to demonstrate the intelligence of the fruit fly. Probably only demonstrates that they can regurgitate what they were taught and nothing more.
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I don't see where anyone said evolution is wrong.
I don't think anyone can say that - I mean, they can believe it is wrong but it will never be proven wrong.
The theory is so elastic, so bendable that you can insert a billion years into the timeline at any point and the glob just rolls on completely unmarred. You can have dinosaurs cold blooded or warm blooded based on the availability of a grant or positive press - it does no damage to the theory because it is a vapor, apparently there, but of no real substance.
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MehGerbil wrote: I don't see where anyone said evolution is wrong.
Then you probably haven't been paying enough attention to reports about the debate in common culture.
MehGerbil wrote: but of no real substance.
That isn't true. There is a great body of consistent conjecture and one cannot just change an arbitrary major part of that without seriously messing up the flow of that. Which to your point doesn't mean it isn't a theory, but it doesn't relegate it to same domain as that of some theory like healing with magnetism either.
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Quote: Or are you claiming that evolution happens in animals, but not in humans because we're special?
Sure. Why not?
We also have DNA in common with tomatoes. So? Sharing DNA does not mean we evolved from a common anything. That is one theory. Another "theory" is that we were created by the same creator. Both have the same exact amount of evidence to support. So, why does science favor one over the other?
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Sharing DNA does not mean we evolved from a common anything.
Go back far enough, and we did.
RyanDev wrote: Both have the same exact amount of evidence to support.
Really? Where's the scientific evidence to support a creator?
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Quote: Go back far enough, and we did.
OK. But again, it's just a theory. There is also a theory that we were all created by the same creator which is why our DNA is similar. There is also a theory that aliens baked us in an oven which is why our DNA is similar. There is also a theory that we are all software programs which is why our DNA is similar.
The point is there are lots of theories that are supported by the one piece of evidence, common DNA.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: supported by the one piece of evidence, common DNA
Common DNA is a good start, but it's far from the only evidence supporting common descent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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True. My point is there is not enough evidence to rule out all other theories leaving evolution as the lone standing theory. Therefore, it remains just a theory.
In an alternate universe, perhaps the common "rationality" there has science believing we were all baked by aliens. Just as a baker makes donuts, cakes, pies, etc, a large variety of items but with commonalities, perhaps their logic says that is the theory that makes most sense.
Evolution makes the most sense to the most number of scientists and that is the only reason it is "accepted" as being true, even though it can't be proven. Then again Obama was voted in by the majority and look how well that went. Great, now you really got me violating Lounge rules and I was behaving so well.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Richard Deeming wrote: Common DNA is a good start, but it's far from the only evidence supporting common descent:
All science is based on assumptions. Every single piece.
If I start with the assumption that there is no supernatural explanation then Evolutionary Theory pretty much follows.
If I start with the assumption that there is a God (Judeo-Christian in this case) and that the world was created 6000 years ago I can explain every single piece of evidence that you can produce now and in the future and still remain consistent with the assumption. I wouldn't be refuting it merely explaining how it exists with respect to the assumption.
The only difference in the above is the assumption.
I can do the same with Noah's Ark for that matter.
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jschell wrote: The only difference in the above is the assumption.
And it's a pretty big assumption.
The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations, is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Quote: The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its own creations,
First off, most Christians and as far as I know, all other religions, do not believe this. So, those that believe this are very few. Most Christians recognize that time is relative and that time to us is not the same as time to our God and the fact is we really have no idea how old the earth is. Science might be correct, we don't know. We know Adam left the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago and so some people assume that is how old the earth is but it could have been millions of years that Adam spent in the garden. It could have been billions of years between the time that God called the fifth "day" and the time He called the sixth "day." Anyway, we don't really know.
However, I know you did something like this when you were a kid. You would trap ants into your own little dug out creation in your yard or you would trap a lizzard and then see if they would eat an insect, etc, etc. Of course I don't believe personally that God is like that at all but the idea you proposed is not far off since you yourself likely did something similar, just on a smaller scale.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: We know Adam left the Garden of Eden about 6000 years ago
I thought that most religions had agreed that the Garden of Eden was an allegorical story, not to be taken literally?
RyanDev wrote: However, I know you did something like this when you were a kid. You would trap ants into your own little dug out creation in your yard or you would trap a lizzard and then see if they would eat an insect, etc, etc.
Actually, I never did anything like that. Who needs ants and lizards when you've got toys to play with? 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Quote: I thought that most religions had agreed that the Garden of Eden was an allegorical story, not to be taken literally?
Not that I was aware of, but perhaps.
Quote: Actually, I never did anything like that. Who needs ants and lizards when you've got toys to play with?
You poor kid. No toy can substitute for digging in the dirt.
You must be too young to remember days before video games.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: You must be too young to remember days before video games.
Just about, but I'll take that as a compliment! 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote: The idea that a supernatural entity created the world 6000 years ago, and
deliberately planted evidence to suggest that it was far older just to test its
own creations, is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary
evidence.
Nonsense.
I don't need to prove God exists when the very basis of the argument is that existence in the first place.
If I said I was going to prove God exists then that would be a different thing.
You are entirely free to refuse to accept the assumption in the first place. But it is a logical fallacy to accept the assumption and then attempt to refute the argument based on rejecting the assumption.
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Exactly. Because one has consequences now, the other does not.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Exactly.
You can get a bunch of 'scientists' in the room declaring that the earth's atmosphere was X,Y, & Z 100 million years ago - calling anyone who disagrees an ignorant moron - until you bring a time machine into the room and offer to send someone back without a gas mask.
Suddenly everyone is interested in running a few 'tests' first.
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There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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MehGerbil wrote: When I worked in the pharmaceutical industry
However probably not the best candidate when attempting to justify the scientific method.
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I only use my experience there to illustrate the contrast between the sort of science that must occur when someone is going to inject themselves with a drug vs. the kind of science that occurs when someone is waxing nostalgic about unobserved, unrepeatable, unfalsifiable events of 1 billion years ago.
People get really picky about what is and what is not science when lives are on the line.
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MehGerbil wrote: People get really picky about what is and what is not science when lives are on
the line.
Again not the best argument. Especially in terms of the medical industry. Since there are failures. And thus based on your argument one can infer that there are even more problems in science where lives are not at stake.
As an example of that...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_touch#Therapeutic_touch_and_nursing_education[^]
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