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jhwurmbach wrote:
Is this really the way your company works?
Yes, our philosophy is to do it right the first time, thus we save on expensive maintenance and callbacks.
jhwurmbach wrote:
But there is no way you can stop a CEO from making late changes on the requirements.
Do not listen to a CEO that does this, or your company will be doomed, and you will never be productive. Any changes must be for the next version in a completly new spec.
jhwurmbach wrote:
Or a customer want to buy only if certain third party software file can be imported.
It's better not to have customers like this, often sales people try to sell products that you don't have. Don't let this happen.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign'
Rob Manderson wrote:
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using C++ or C# arranging everything into tidy classes for future reusability
It make no difference what language you use, apply the same principles to all. I do MVC, Factory Patterns, API, Message handling and interception in VB. Theres nothing you can do in C# that I can't do in VB.Net.
The VB-C war is over. Live with it!
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LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
Theres nothing you can do in C# that I can't do in VB.Net.
Execept program, VB is script glue, C#/C++ code glue.;P
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I am not a .Net developer, but I do know that C# is the language that supports most of the features that are described in the .Net definition. With that being said there are many features of .Net that are not supported in VB.Net that are supported in C#.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life!
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I totally agree with you.
Maybe learning curve is harder than using any other tool on windows, but the results are better if you can take five minutes planning the work before getting the hands on the keyboard.
I'm arguing with people about it almost every day at my work...
Just three words: void main(void)
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How can someone be wrong. I mean I had to spend 15 years writing COBOL on the MainFrame, while using variations of basic and C on multiple platforms. I truly hated coding in COBOL and preferred to write in ALC Assembler, because of how much control I had, especially in keeping memory usage in check.
Given the choice I would rather code in VB, if my other choices are COBOL, even Object COBOL from Micro Focus or products like PowerBuilder. So it is all relative. But the final deteminant in what language to use is the language that the client wants. You can do all you can to steer them in the write direction, but if they insist on VB what are you going to do. Turn down the work. I know I cannot afford to do that.
And just to go with your assessment of using C++ to get it right. Being able to deliver a product developed with VB that provides the client with the usability and functionality they wanted is no easy feat. You have to really know your way around the API and use any other programming finesse to cover for VBs inadequacies.
If you can Understand the domain of the user, translate the users needs into a valid specification and produce a quality usable tool, in the time frame the user requires, it does not really matter what development tool you used, you performed you job, and have a happy user. And isn't that the point and what really makes a good developer.
I believe it is the Navy Seals that say it best (if it is another group that uses this than I apologize for the incorrect credit) Adapt, Overcome and Improvize. A good programmer must do this as well, and if that means developing with a tool he finds beneath him, than do it.
RickMan
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RickMan wrote:
You have to really know your way around the API and use any other programming finesse to cover for VBs inadequacies.
I had never thought of it that way.
That's an interesting perspective.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign'
Rob Manderson wrote:
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Right on, time to learn it is not about code but about the business and money that is why the CEO calls the shots.
The right solution is the one that gets the job done, on time and to budget.
I learnt to program in assembler on Z80's and you C++ programmers call yourselves the real programmers
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Taking a couple of weeks is no solution if your biggest client needs something in days, and you need it in days to keep the client. We would all like to architect near perfect solutions, but often business dictates otherwise. You do understand business in addition to C++??
Colin Davies wrote:
Paul Farry wrote:
If the purpose is to knock something together in 30minutes, I'll grab VB,
WRONG !!
Thats no solution, spend a couple of weeks using C++ or C# arranging everything into tidy classes for future reusability. So it might take a couple of weeks but at least you have made a good job of it.
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ProffK wrote:
You do understand business in addition to C++??
Certainly I do.
However no time limit should ever be set on true R&D, which often brings the highest return. In any situation you should always consider the medium term as well as the short term.
"Strategic management is not a box of tricks or a bundle of techniques. It is analytical thinking and commitment of resources to action" quoted from Peter Drucker.
The moment your development business starts creating quick fixes, is the moment that you will lose your classic edge as an innovator of the products.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign'
Rob Manderson wrote:
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on I realise that most developers understand the business side of this, I was just making a wise crack.
A difference that comes into play with what you have said, is where your business is not a development business. In this area, 'quick', but not dirty, VB development supports another core business, which always comes before software innovation.
I developed a VB system for a mortgage origination platform, and if I had spent time on R&D, they would not be in business.
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Yes, for small to tiny apps and fast development I can see a use for VB.
But when you have a product that you want to have at the center of your business, and will probably be upgrading and extending every six months I really believe VB is unlikely to be the candidate environment for this.
Although I must admit I have never really developed a major project in VB so I can't talk from experience.
ProffK wrote:
but not dirty, VB development supports another core business,
I understand what you are saying and agree.
However one of the biggest problems I see for development teams is when the management expect every answer to be created within in hours when the problems should have been in the original spec. There is a continuing conflict between management and development, unfortunately when the management see something being done fast with a tool like VB they then expect major projects to be completed in the same manner. Possibly this additionaly sours my thoughts towards VB.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign'
Rob Manderson wrote:
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C programmers have been slagging VB since it started! Nothing changes. VB is easier to code, implement and read.
At the end of day, when talking about code under .Net it really does make absolutely no difference whether you're using VB or C#. I've converted many of the C# projects on here to VB.Net with no problems.
If, like me, you've got 10 years of VB stick with and try to pick up C# as you go along. Theres no time to switch languages if your working all day, every day.
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Yeah, try reusing VB code...
Perhaps VB.NET is better.. heck, it is a completely different language than previous VB versions.
You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
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LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
VB is easier to code, implement and read.
ROFLMOA! typical its easy for develop the odd data entry program, developing real GUI/Critical applications no, no, no. I've seen so many VB programs trying to develop around 3rd party controls, it actually make me sick seeing VB 
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LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
VB is easier to code, implement and read
In the hands of a real developer VB can be a powerful tool. VB earnt its reputation as bad because it allowed any old hack to write applications. Programming is something that anybody can do, however it takes a certain kind of person to do it well.
Michael
The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.
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Paul Farry wrote:
If the purpose is to knock something together in 30minutes, I'll grab VB,
For me, if the first requirement I'm told is the time limit, I tell them to get stuffed. The time constraint should be the absolute last requirement that a developer is given.
Chris Meech
"what makes CP different is the people and sense of community, things people will only discover if they join up and join in." Christian Graus Nov 14, 2002.
"AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! Those leaks are driving me crazy! How does one finds a memory leak in a garbage collected environment ??! Daniel Turini Nov. 2, 2002.
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Chris Meech wrote:
The time constraint should be the absolute last requirement that a developer is given.
Yeah, if you want to do proper R&D the questions how much does it cost, and how long will it take, are irrelevant.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign'
Rob Manderson wrote:
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When I said 30 minutes... I meant something trivial (data entry screen for an operator).... Not that someone is imposing a 30 minutes deadline on me.
Of course if someone else is setting my deadlines, I push back on them and give them a more accurate assessment.
Even if that assessment is still 30minutes, I'll return to my office, have a think about the requirement and then say... Hmmm I think we'll be fine for this project in xx Time + 10%... Errors do occur.
This also portrays to project managers that you don't just shoot from the hip regarding projects and timeframes. In the longer term this approach has served me well, because when I tell a project manager the time, they adjust their schedule rather than mine....
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What is below average? If its a VB user then that explains the results thus far.
Todd Smith
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At least VB programmers aren't up their owm A#@ES!
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That's because they haven't found it. 
--
Ignorant people upsets me.
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LeeDaviesVBSource wrote:
VB programmers
VB "programmers"? Hahahahahahahahahaha...
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Where's the Godlike option?
I work with a bunch of straight out of university VB programmers and one FoxPro programmer who hasn't learnt a new language or technology in 6 years.
I always thought I was an average programmer until I met these guys 
Michael
The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.
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LOL I feel the same way. Where is the god like option? Most of the people out of universties don't know much at all except visual basic. I for one am not even out of highschool and I am way exceeding them. I already have tons of C/C++, weblanguages, and other type of expereince. Including I can make full 3d games in directx by myself. That is what makes me feel even more sad  ..
- LiquidKnight
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