|
Erudite__Eric wrote: This is the same guy who said "debugging is the oposite of programming".
Yes I am.
Erudite__Eric wrote: My advice is to stop wasting our time with silly questions like this.
I wonder that this is the way experienced members in code project helping others. It may be silly question to you, but not for me. I have an interesting to learn embedded systems, and that is why I ask it openly. Since I have experienced in C/C++ a lot, I decide to plan something beyond that, yet relevant. That is why I ask my question in C/C++ forum too.
If you have any solution please let know. If not don't say anything to discourage others. If you really want to do that, show me the pros and cons I have.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover 
|
|
|
|
|
Your question is too broad, too unfocused, not specific.
Your previous question about assembler, trying to turn a led on and off, what hardware were you running it on? Was it a test board, or some real bit of hardware you got hold of? How were you loading your code onto the hardware?
See what I mean?
If you want to learn embedded programming then get yourself some test/development hardware that you can practice on. Look on google. OSR used to do one I seem to recall.
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Now I see your point. Sorry for the confusion.
May be that is because of I haven't much knowledge related with Embedded systems, pic and so on. So I have no clear picture in my mind about the stuff. You guys can guide me on to the relevant track. Basically I want to use my knowledge of C/C++ in hardware stuff, like PIC and so on. I have only my own interest, nothing to do with my job. 
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
|
|
|
|
|
CodingLover wrote: If you have any solution please let know.
Solution to what? You say you want to learn programming on embedded systesms, PIC etc., have you tried the obvious starting point[^]?
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff
I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
|
|
|
|
|
Of course I tried mate. Already collect some stuff. But most of them are too complex to understand at once, because of the lack of knowledge on the basis.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
|
|
|
|
|
This looks good:
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3081-pic16f84a-introduction-to-pic-programming-tutorial.htm[^]
Now, if you dont order that straight away and start learning, we will never answer another question of yours.
--edit--
Actually, at £17 thats damn cheap, I might get one myself, always fancied doing a bit more embedded!
(I have been working in the Windows kernel for 13 years, mostly hardware related, but it could be fun to get right into the hardware. I also ought to learn the Linux kernel some time...)
|
|
|
|
|
That make sense to me too.
I already bought simple electronic components too, to familiarize with them. At the time I'll put an order on this too. Download a simple simulator and working on it too.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
|
|
|
|
|
CodingLover wrote: But most of them are too complex to understand at once
So how do you think posting questions here will change that? The only way to learn is to study hard and practice. These forums are for technical questions not for "How can I learn X?".
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff
I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
|
|
|
|
|
Don't misinterpret the original question mate. I am asking about some reading materials where I can learn the basis on embedded systems and all. Not expecting any code or anything. So far I haven't make such a request on CP too.
I ask about the materials because people who has already refer them have a better understanding about the stuff.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
|
|
|
|
|
CodingLover wrote: Don't misinterpret the original question mate.
I'm not (yet) your mate; that is a term of endearment reserved for my close friends only.
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff
I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
|
|
|
|
|
If you would like to learn about embedded programming and hardware development, start small.
1. Purchase a student kit from Microchip.
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en539716&redirects=picdemlab
2. Read ALL of the information provided.
3. Familiarize yourself with the datasheet for the micro-controller you are using. It is your best friend.
4. Follow the examples closely.
5. Visit the forums to search for answers to your questions.
6. If after step 5 you are still unable to find the answers to your questions, ask for help online. People prefer to only help those that are willing to try to help themselves first.
|
|
|
|
|
UINT_PTR timer = SetTimer(1 , 1000 , NULL);
m_timeOut = FALSE;
while(!m_rxBufferRecivied && !m_timeOut)
{
}
KillTimer(timer);
.
.
.
void CMainFrame::OnTimer(UINT_PTR nIDEvent)
{
m_timeOut = TRUE;
}
In this code i wait in a while loop unil input buffer recieved.
Before the loop i set a timer to wait maximum 1 second so the program wont stack in a loop(in case there is error receving buffer).
If i remove the while loop timer callback function ONTimer works fine every second but with the loop the program stacks in a endless loop.
What am i doing wrong?
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Your while() loop is not relinquishing control of the CPU. Inside of that loop, you're going to need to poll for messages.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Show me a community that obeys the Ten Commandments and I'll show you a less crowded prison system." - Anonymous
|
|
|
|
|
Hi,
1. first a general note: empty loops that spin the CPU until some condition is met are a bad idea as they waste CPU cycles. You should look first for an event-based approach, where the system tells you something happened rather than you permanently polling for it. If no event-based solution exists, your loop should relinquish the CPU by including a "sleep" of a couple of milliseconds at least, so other things can happen while you wait.
2. I don't know on which thread your while loop is executing; if it is on the main thread (the same one that would execute your OnTimer code), then there is no way the app can do both things at the same time: the OnTimer event will only get handled when the while has finished, causing a deadlock. Now read again my #1. If OTOH the while loop is running on another thread, then I don't know why your setup is failing.
3. If all you need is waiting for some input with a time-out, and still assuming there isn't an easy event-based approach, then I'd recommend this (pseudo-code!):
Time limit = now() + maximumWaitTime;
for(;;) {
try getting the input
if (success) break;
sleep(someDelay);
if (now() > limit) break;
}
|
|
|
|
|
Ahh, you have them in the same thread. Your while () loop is taking up all the thread time and the WM_TIMER messange cant get through.
You can multi thread this, or do a loop that checks for received data, then does a sleep(200), then checking again, for a max of 5 attempts.
Or an event, do a waitforsingleobject() then in a the code that sets m_rxbufferrcvd signals the event. (If you can get to that code).
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
If you have a long running loop, chewing up cycles waiting for something to happen, to keep the GUI responsive (and to let things like timer events happen), you should periodically let Windows process messages. Stick this somewhere in your 'while' loop. At the top or bottom are the usual places.
while (PeekMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_REMOVE))
{
TranslateMessage(&msg);
DispatchMessage(&msg);
}
And it is true that keeping the GUI and application functions separate in a thread is a good idea, sometimes it's just too much work to re-do an application's logic to introduce threading when none existed before. In those cases, this should do the trick and not be too "architecturally impure".
|
|
|
|
|
No, dont do this, you are reinventing the wheel and possibly introducing instability.
The message pump, which is what this is, is invisible in MFC apps (which I assume this guy is writing). Ansd in a C++ app having messages removed form the apps message queue and translated is at best ugly, and at worst dangerous, unless you KNOW that access to the apps message queue is multithread safe.
The quick solution here is a sleep() call inside the loop. It is sidely used, and isnt going to cause any problems.
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Nonsense. Microsoft even documents this for dealing with exactly the kind of application.
Occasionally, an application needs to examine the contents of a thread's message queue from outside the thread's message loop. For example, if an application's window procedure performs a lengthy drawing operation, you may want the user to be able to interrupt the operation. Unless your application periodically examines the message queue during the operation for mouse and keyboard messages, it will not respond to user input until after the operation has completed.
Plus the user's loop is already preventing message processing, adding a Sleep() call will only *lengthen* the amount of time he's chewing up (real time, not cpu cycles obviously).
This is well documented and long standing solution to *some* (not all) unresponsive GUI / Timer queue issues. Even threaded applications can do this, only not from multiple threads at the same time, obviously.
|
|
|
|
|
Chuck O'Toole wrote: Plus the user's loop is already preventing message processing, adding a Sleep()
call will only *lengthen* the amount of time he's chewing up
No, quite the opposite. A sleep() surrenders the rest of that threads timeslice, it doesnt chew up cycles, it frees them. This function causes a thread to relinquish the remainder of its time slice [^]
And if Microsoft recomends that then I am surprised. I can just imagine the code. DispatchMessage() is locked, because WM_DRAW hasnt come back from your message handler, so in that handler you call another DispatchMessage(). Perhaps you have some other handlers that are slow, so you do the same there. What a mess.
Work intensive code should go in a seperate thread to the UI. Period, properly synchronised with the UI so the user has control.
Chuck O'Toole wrote: not from multiple threads at the same time, obviously.
And why, because the PeekMessage()/TranslateMessage()/DispatchMessage() is not thread safe?
Like I said, you risk instability.
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Erudite__Eric wrote:
Chuck O'Toole wrote: Plus the user's loop is already
preventing message processing, adding a Sleep()
call will only *lengthen*
the amount of time he's chewing up
No, quite the
opposite. A sleep() surrenders the rest of that threads timeslice, it doesnt
chew up cycles, it frees them.
And if Microsoft recomends that then
I am surprised. Work intensive code should go in a seperate thread to the UI.
If you're going to quote me, use the whole quote, not the part that makes it sound like the opposite of what I said. The actual quote should be:
Chuck O'Toole wrote: Plus the user's loop is already preventing message processing, adding a Sleep()
call will only *lengthen* the amount of time he's chewing up (real time, not cpu
cycles obviously).
The parenthetical states that it's not the CPU Cycles but the "Clock On The Wall Cycles". Sleep() adds code to the loop, is a system call that adds more code being executed in the loop, and, even with Sleep(0) to quit the timeslice, still causes a complete scheduler cycle to look for other runnable threads before returning to this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
Chuck O'Toole wrote: Sleep() adds code to the loop,
Where as Peekmessage()/TranslateMessage()/DispatchMessage() does what?
Chuck O'Toole wrote: even with Sleep(0) to quit the timeslice, still causes a complete scheduler
cycle to look for other runnable threads before returning to this thread.
Happens all the time. It is what windows does. No problem there.
What Sleep() does allow is for the message handler to return and the message pump to do its job while, in this case, his code is waiting for data to be available.
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
1st, stop being a smarta$$, do I need a lawyer to review things for you to read? Clearly Sleep() adds code for *no benefit to this application* whereas *Peek/translate/dispatch* are *beneficial* to this app.
2nd, it's clear that you haven't read all the messages here. This guy isn't using threads, although lots of people are encouraging him to do so at the cost of redoing his application. That may or not be a good thing for *HIM*. I'm not debating that. He's not getting back to his message pump *because* he's doing processing in his GUI handler. Sleep ain't gonna help that because there's no Message Pump to run. Period. He has to provide his own (or redesign his app). I showed him how to provide his own JUST AS MICROSOFT DOCUMENTS.
|
|
|
|
|
Chuck O'Toole wrote: Clearly Sleep() adds code for *no benefit to this application* whereas
*Peek/translate/dispatch* are *beneficial* to this app.
Sorry, thats total guff. Sleep() will do the job perfectly well with less lines of code and in a more logical fashion.
Chuck O'Toole wrote: He's not getting back to his message pump *because* he's doing processing in his
GUI handler. Sleep ain't gonna help that because there's no Message Pump to run
You are wrong. Putting a Sleep() in the dispatcher will let the message pump run because it will release the existing call to DispatchMessage().
Chuck O'Toole wrote: there's no Message Pump to run. Period. He has to provide his own
Of course there is! He wouldnt HAVE a Windows applicaiton without a message pump!
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
[updated to reflect a third experiment's results]
Erudite__Eric wrote:
Of course there is! He wouldnt HAVE a Windows applicaiton without a message
pump!
I'm not that dumb. Maybe I should have said "no message pump for Sleep() to return to". Your statement that Sleep() will release the call to DispatchMessage() needs to be proven beyond simply asserting it is true so I ran an experiment.
I have a "regressison tester" application that does many long running things. In one case, similar to this one, I'm just cross checking some datafiles and I need to keep a "status / log window up to date with the progress". So I have this function called at times in the processing loop.
void CRegressionTesterDlg::ProcessWindowMessages()
{
MSG msg;
while (::PeekMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_REMOVE))
{
TranslateMessage(&msg);
DispatchMessage(&msg);
}
}
And I ran three tests, one with the code as originally written, once with Sleep() replacing the message loop, and once with all the code commentd out. All kept the window up to date when it was visible. However, the Sleep() case and the "no code" case both failed to process other windows messages, like minimizing, clicking on the task bar to bring the window back to the front, etc. All these are classic symptoms of not having the "message pump" run.
So, I think that Sleep() does not do as you assert, it has no effect on the Windows Message Processing. Furthermore, Microsoft's documentation on Sleep() explicitly warns against using it during functions called by message processing as it may cause a hang or delay in processing.
Personally, since Microsoft says to use PeekMessage() in their documentation for exactly these types of long running things, I'm sticking with that. And I think you need to run some experiments on your own.
modified 1-Nov-11 11:23am.
|
|
|
|
|
So you tested this by putting a sleep() in the one function that handles all the windows messages?
ANd you call this a valid test?
==============================
Nothing to say.
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
