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I prefer to keep it.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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I like to see democracy in action. 
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So do I. Where can I go to see it?
I was going to do the old "1 man, 1 vote" gag but I decided against it.
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Chris Maunder wrote: I prefer to keep it.
Of course you do, it means you have less work to do monitoring the forum. Instead you hand the role over to the mobocracy.
However the mobocracy has a considerably wider agenda than yours. Yours is stopping CP being blocked by some sites because of offensive material.
The mobocracies agenda is vaired, and emotive. From picking on newbies, to applying their own peculier rules and have clearly caused a number of members to stop visiting. As clearly attested by Soleras post.
Here is one of their rules, that differs from yours: You don't like GW posts in SB. The mobocracy don't like them in the lounge (and suggeste they be moved to the SB).
So, there you have it, abnegation of your responsibility has degreaded the quality of CP and allowed mob rule to dominate. Are you satisfied with that? 
==============================
Nothing to say.
modified on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:19 AM
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Just a minor correction: I don't like trolls endlessly harping on about a subject in one forum when they have already been given another forum, and asked many times to use that forum, to use to beat their own drum.
I don't understand how me taking away other members' ability to vote on their fellow members' messages means I am abnegating a responsibility and results in me having any less work to do.
I'm not trying to argue with you in this: I'm truly interested in whether you are suggestion that I should track and moderate every single message in the lounge, and probably every other forum.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: Just a minor correction
That is an explanation, not a correction, but pedantry aside, I understand. (And by the way, the backroom is so under utilised it is useless)
As for work. You no longer need forum monitors, as you have automatice post removal through voting. That results in less work for you. (At least I would have thought it would. If not, then why introduce it? )
As for responsibility. As Solera posted in the Lounge recently, a post that was well received, voting has hindered his interestin in posting on CP because he is scared of offending the self appointed mobocrats. This is a shame. The Lounge and SB are now used by fewer and fewer people. The topics of convertsation increasingly less and less interesting, and the responses less and less fun.
Look, I am not actually an argumentative guy, but I like a good lively debate. I like to throw a crazzy idea out there and see who argues back. It is fun, and I get to learn something, because there is always someone with an interesting insight on a subject.
All that has gone since voting came in and the BS split. It has taken the fun out of CP. The Wiki article describes CP as having lively forums. That used to be the case. It isnt now. And that is a shame.
==============================
Nothing to say.
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It's a correction because you said I don't like GW posts. That's not the case; it's trolls that kill the fun.
As to the voting and the fear of being - mocked? slammed? generally made to feel unwelcome? - yes, I see your point.
This debate has gone on for years and I keep coming back to the issue of needing to indicate the messages that are great and the ones that are crap, as well as providing a mechanism to remove those that are simply inappropriate. The best suggestion that solves the elitist issue is to remove downvoting entirely and only allow upvotes and reporting. An argument could be made that this will encourage more upvoting (since it's simpler, since it's less confrontational) but I'm not sure this would be the case. We'd have upvotes, we'd have closed messages, and we'd have the rest.
Those really, really bad jokes, the trolls looking to simply start a fight who yet manage to skirt the line of inappropriate, or those that post something inappropriate (though not offensive) for whom members wish to simply add their weight with a vote instead of a comment - all these messages will then be left unmarked and on an equal footing with the interesting-yet-unvoted messages.
That's my concern.
If the concern is that, by posting a message a member may have the "mobocrats" come down hard, then the difference between removing voting and not will be that instead of downvotes, the message is more likely to have a direct reply slapping the member down. What's more discouraging - a downvote or a message.
I'm aure you, and many, would far rather have a message that can be responded to rather than an anonymous vote, but if someone is going to be put off by a downvote then surely a message pointing out their faults is even more hurtful. They are words, not a number, and their inbox will bear the brunt.
Now, as for clarification, you have to be kidding me if you think I have spare time, let alone the time to play a round of golf
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: It's a correction because you said I don't like GW posts
No, I said you dont like them in the SB. You never said anything about them in general.
Chris Maunder wrote: it's trolls that kill the fun
Yes, it does. And as has been pointed out by a number of people, points trolling has done just that. Killed the fun. It is actually more distastefull than trolling, but thats perhaps because I am English, and to show pride and be boastfull, of what is quite frankly of little value anyway, really is beneath decent behaviour. And the increase in the number of posts, about votes! If that isn't trolling then tell me what is!
Chris Maunder wrote: This debate has gone on for years and I keep coming back to the issue of needing
to indicate the messages that are great and the ones that are crap
Do you think the reslts of the current voting system in anyway indicate which are great messages? Sorry, I am starting to laugh quite a lot here at the thought of the daily twatteresque green garbage that goes through the Lounge.  Quality?
Anyway, great posts are those that get responses. I really liked the old number of responses field against the post. You really knew those posts that were interesting, popular or not, the views in them sparked a lively debate. Thats how good posts are rated. Bad ones get ignored. Thats the way it used to be, and I liked it.
Chris Maunder wrote: What's more discouraging - a downvote or a message
Actually a message is less discouraging, because at least the down voter HAS to stick his head up and say, 'I disagree with this for such and such a reason' whereas today, you have snide down voting, malicious down voting, systematic down voting. And also if the offender is told how he has caused offfence he has the chance to justify, or appologise.
I dont know, perhaps I have a style of debate that is too lively for most people, and perhaps the mob wants a tame, sterile place. But I certainly enjoyed the banter, the lively humour, and serious depth of debate of the old days. CP is a mere shadow of itself today. 
==============================
Nothing to say.
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Erudite__Eric wrote: I certainly enjoyed the banter, the lively humour, and serious depth of debate
I still don't see that you've explained clearly how downvotes kill this. You mentioned points trolling, but I'm not sure what you mean. Downvoting gives the voter no points. If you mean discussions on rep and points, then yes, they aren't exactly scintillating conversation pieces, but neither are a lot of things.
So what's stopping you from having lively debates about stuff relevant to the working life of a typical developer?
Edit: out of interest, what sorts of topics are you most interested in discussing.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
modified 22-Sep-11 13:24pm.
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Chris Maunder wrote: I still don't see that you've explained clearly how downvotes kill this
Ok, instead of people taking the time to formulate and put down in words why they disagree with a post, they just downvote it. That is not banter. It is sniping.
Chris Maunder wrote: You mentioned points trolling
People posting purely to get points. It is quite obvious that some posts are phrased expressly to gather points, in fact I have been accused of doing this myself by other people, so clearly other people also see this happening.
Chris Maunder wrote: So what's stopping you from having lively debates about stuff relevant to the
working life of a typical developer?
Not finding it particularly lively is the principle obstacle. It is a job, it pays money, beyond that I have little interest in IT.
==============================
Nothing to say.
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I think points trolling and voting are two very different issues. People don't post carefully crafted posts just for points. They post them for laughs, to be seen as an expert, to start a fight, to get a reaction. And yes, to get upvotes. Removing voting will not stop this.
Erudite__Eric wrote: instead of people taking the time to formulate and put down in words why they disagree with a post, they just downvote it.
I removed voting in the Soapbox. Did this improve banter? Or did people simply do nothing because they couldn't vote?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: ...And yes, to get upvotes. Removing voting will not stop this.
Well, it will stop the latter, clearly.
Chris Maunder wrote: I removed voting in the Soapbox. Did this improve banter? Or did people simply
do nothing because they couldn't vote?
I don't recall removing voting in SB, perhaps it was during a period when I wasnt using CP. What killed the SB though was when it got split into three: BS2, SB1 and BR.
==============================
Nothing to say.
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As soon as a question in Q&A is closed, all the comments to this question and also to all solutions disappear. Shouldn't the comments still be there or is this intentional?
Also, the todo-list on top of Site Bugs/Suggestions seems to be gone.
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DNA)
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Would it be possible to have some kind of line/change in highlighting/whatever joining the subject to the poster's name when you hover over the link (similar to the way the line joins the next post up the tree)? When using a widescreen monitor (who doesn't these days) I find the current scheme difficult to determine who the poster is when viewing the list of forum posts, particularly when there are a heap of nested levels.
Thanks!
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I did have a hover-over at one point. I think I was shouted down on that.
Have you tried the "Fixed" layour option at the bottom of the page? It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's there in case you missed it.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Yeah, I don't like the fixed view... it's not a massive issue, so if it's been tried and smacked previously, no problems!! 
Edit: How about just making an alternate line colour rather than the same colour with a white spacer?
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In my relative's comp where I can't use fixed view, I always ctrl+click on the space right besides the post, it will select the whole post (FF)
Excuse me for my improper grammar and typos.
It's because English is my primary language, not my first language.
My first languages are C# and Java.
VB, ASP, JS, PHP and SQL are my second language.
Indonesian came as my third language.
My fourth language? I'm still creating it, I'll let you know when it's done!
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So I noticed that NET 4.5 Framework has it's own forum.
The "Silverlight & WPF" forum has been renamed to append "WinRT". However, WinRT has nothing to do with the other two. WinRT really deserves its own forum. Or it should be combined with the "Windows API" forum rather than where it is.
Seems to me that the ".NET 4.5 framework" forum is superfluous since there's already a ".Net Framework" forum.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun
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I wanted to combine it with a forum that would be a stepping stone for developers. However, am happy to move it out to its own.
Edit:
ahmed zahmed wrote: Seems to me that the ".NET 4.5 framework" forum is superfluous since there's
already a ".Net Framework" forum
Sure, but discussions on the changes will get buried in the general .NET forum.
How about a .NET 4.5 / WinRT forum? Or more simply: "Windows 8"?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: Or more simply: "Windows 8"?
Where's the Windows 3.11 forum? 
Somebody in an online forum wrote: INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
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uh...I'll get back to you on that...
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote: uh...I'll get back to you on that...
AspDotNetDev read: I'll start working on that.
 *bookmarks post to hold Chris to his word*
Somebody in an online forum wrote: INTJs never really joke. They make a point. The joke is just a gift wrapper.
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Chris Maunder wrote: Or more simply: "Windows 8"?
While calling it Windows 8 Dev Issues would be good, I really think you should call it WinRT/Metro. Microsoft is hype-marketing the bejesus out of those two words/phrases, so it'd make sense to use a title that people would recognize.
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Combining it with the current Windows API made the most sense.
Windows API and WinRT/Metro[^]
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project | Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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