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I typed this out then came here to post it, only to find Nitron has picked up on the same vibes too...
Whether or not there are genuinely more crap (I'm sorry but that is the right word) articles appearing of late, or whether they are just picked up on more frequently I don't know, but something has got to change because a feeling like that is very easily picked up on and carried around. Reputations are hard earned and easy lost, and if current happenings are the way of the future then CP is going to have a hard one. We must remember that not everybody comes to CP to jump straight in with the community (I know I didn't) - that comes with time when you've spent many weeks reading through the incredible wealth of information that is always available here on CodeProject, and is still appearing at a good rate. But if people's first impressions are blurred by sub standard material it will be ahrd to take that first image away from them.
I don't know if anyone has picked up on this but these past few months I've noticed significantly less new people actively participating in the free-topic forums like the Lounge, SoapBox, and General Discussions. I know I don't know every active community member, but I am clicking less and less new profiles now to find out about names I don't recognise. Could people be using this site like, say, a builetin board and merely asking their questions and moving away? Maybe the community side has reached it's equillibrium, but that signal could equally be a sign that something is wrong. I personally would hate to see the community side settle stagnate where it is - I think the unique mix of nationalities, personalities and views floating around amongst our active members all linked by one common interest is truely wonderful, but we still have a lot of room to grow. Maybe creating a few more free-topic forums, say one for sports and one for serious discussions, could be created? Some people may not feel like they can contribute anything worthwhile to the community areas because they are lost so quickly (and that simply isn't true: I've been posting utter crap for three years and no-ones gotten *too* upset yet).
What can be done to improve the image without disencouraging those who want to submit real quality articles? Should each article go through a basic peer-review before it is made visible? (This would take enormous resources). Should unedited articles be more clearly identified as unedited (e.g. different coloured text or hilighting)? Maybe new unedited articles could go through a probationary period of, say, one week where Silver+ members can vote to have it removed (like Nitron suggested)?
Maybe we need something to kick the existing community into helping with the article sifting? The editors do a great job, but how about having more sub editors - there are loads of people here who are extremely knowledgable in odd little areas of topics and technologies who could take some of the heat off of the main editors.
I don't know the answer - I haven't got years of exeprience running such a complex site with such a unique mix of visitors, and who knows maybe I have picked up on the wrong vibes here, but to me it clear: something has got to change before it gets out of hand. Nip it in the bud, so to speak.
Live for today and die tomorrow.
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Yeah. What David said. Just like that, that's how it is. Ditto.
---
Shog9
This is my December
These are my snow covered dreams
This is me pretending
This is all I need...
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I am *so* tempted to have that as my permanent sig. 
Yeah. What David said. Just like that, that's how it is. Ditto. - Shog.
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ROTFL!
Well i guess that's one way to get quoted...
---
Shog9
This is my December
These are my snow covered dreams
This is me pretending
This is all I need...
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David Wulff wrote:
Maybe creating a few more free-topic forums, say one for sports and one for serious discussions, could be created?
But CP is a site about programming, the lounge and the soapbox are there for us to do our "water cooler chat" with like minded people. Adding extra forums will just dilute the meaning of CP.
I think the 'slush pile' of new articles created by the wizard should have to be reviewed before appearing on the front page. (They would still be available in the approriate sections, until rejected by an editor)
Maybe as others have suggested we need a group of article reviewers (like publishing houses/movie industry have readers) who don't actually edit the articles but can decide whether or not the article is of any value.
The reviewers need to be selected from article authors who have published 5+ edited articles. This will help keep a good quality control whilst hopefully keeping the ego factor under control.
Michael
Fat bottomed girls
You make the rockin' world go round -- Queen
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Michael P Butler wrote:
think the 'slush pile' of new articles created by the wizard should have to be reviewed before appearing on the front page
I agree with that. I don't agree with the process you propose, but the end result should be like a newspaper with "quality" above the fold and "crap/unrated" below the fold.
Michael P Butler wrote:
The reviewers need to be selected from article authors who have published 5+ edited articles. This will help keep a good quality control whilst hopefully keeping the ego factor under control.
If it is not a Chris Maunder/CP Admin defined group of reviewers then that would be fine.
I think my main problem with all this "lets select X people to sort the gems from the rubble" is that we are then not taking advantage of the distributed power that CP contains. 100,000 members (even taking into account not all are active) is a huge source of power.
We should be looking for ways, like /., which takes advantage of the emergent behavoiour of 100,000 minds. Bottom up, not top down.
But I am still thinking about it 
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Which explains why when Santa asked, "And what do you want for Christmas, little boy?" I said, "A life." (Accesories sold separately)
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Paul Watson wrote:
I don't agree with the process you propose,
Just an idea off the top of my head, the process certainly needs a lot of refining.
Paul Watson wrote:
We should be looking for ways, like /., which takes advantage of the emergent behavoiour of 100,000 minds. Bottom up, not top down.
The /. system works well for the messages posted but for articles I don't think it would work. We've got a pretty decent system at the moment, it's just that a lot of pap is visible for the first few hours of its posting. Eventually the article rating system balances itself out.
I think avoiding a select group of reviewers is impossible, most people still come here just to download code and read articles. They aren't really interested in being part of the community. Getting them involved would be great but it just won't happen. I visit Slashdot quiet a lot, but very rarely use the moderation points given and even less meta-moderating.
I think there is a lot of merit in the slush-pile -> readers -> editors scheme. I think 99% of all articles should still be accessible, we just need some way to filter out the crap before it appears on the front-page.
Michael
Fat bottomed girls
You make the rockin' world go round -- Queen
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Michael P Butler wrote:
Getting them involved would be great but it just won't happen
Why would it be great ? I think joining the community implies wanting to share, so I do not see why people who come here just to download code and read articles would be part of the community. Or maybe we should define what we call the community ?
~RaGE();
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Michael P Butler wrote:
But CP is a site about programming, the lounge and the soapbox are there for us to do our "water cooler chat" with like minded people. Adding extra forums will just dilute the meaning of CP.
I completely agree with that. Anyway, one may already discuss seriously or about sports in the lounge.
~RaGE();
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I agree, but would like to pick up on one point:
Michael P Butler wrote:
But CP is a site about programming, the lounge and the soapbox are there for us to do our "water cooler chat" with like minded people. Adding extra forums will just dilute the meaning of CP.
I disagree. I think a lot of the problem is people are using CP as a buletin board and don't stay long enough to really appreciate just what it is the CP can offer them. Getting people to keep returning to a site for years and years requires you to either give them free stuff or give them a place in a community - CP does both, but "getting in" may seem a daunting process to many people. Think back, how many "I've beena visitor for a while now but have only just plucked up the courage to introduce myself" messages did we get in the lounge, say, 18 months ago? Probably a couple a week. Now how many can you recall recently? I can think of only one guy. If you keep feeding the community then the community spirit will bring in the rest, and then the crappy articles would stop because people would value what CP stands for.
Live for today and die tomorrow.
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DOH!  All that and I forgot to put the NASDAQ analogy in writing... Well, in the US NASDAQ market, stock prices need to maintain trading over a certain level ($1) or they get de-listed. That was supposed to be the analogy with the articles. (Hence the title of the post...)
Anyway, David has good points too.
- Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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Instead of this message, how about allowing the new vote to replace the old one? From time to time I click on the wrong number by accident.
Who's that peepin' through my window?
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Chris likes it like that. He says it kind of balances out the voting. Besides, I think that he likes to hear people say they voted the wrong number...
I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past.
-Chris Maunder
Microsoft has reinvented the wheel, this time they made it round.
-Peterchen on VS.NET
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The Embedded / Mobile forum is not in the forums dropdown. Why doesn't the dropdown in the Lounge feed off of the database?
I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past.
-Chris Maunder
Microsoft has reinvented the wheel, this time they made it round.
-Peterchen on VS.NET
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Could we get '100' as an option on the 'per page' drop down in the forums?
Dylan
"In meetings, the person who is least competent usually does the most talking. Talking is a direct substitute for competence, at least in the minds of other people. Five minutes after you leave a meeting, you won't remember what anyone said but you will remember who did most of the talking. Withing a day your mind will translate that into a notion that the talker was unusually knowledgeable" - Scott Adams, Dilbert and the way of the weasel
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Lol - I was just thinking that earlier today - the addict always needs more!
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
Damned nice for remote servers where using Enterprise Manager is like wadding through treacle while covered in velcro, upside down -Paul Watson on SQL Server Query Analyser
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We need greatest hits of threads either they are from Lounge or from any programming boards.
So it makes easy to visit these threads later. ![Jig | [Dance]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/jig.gif)
Example : Wimamp Greatest Hits [^]
Kant
Sonork-100.28114
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Perhaps put a link above each (programming) message board that with subject "Most asked questions + answers"? Something like that.
Rickard Andersson@Suza Computing
C# and C++ programmer from SWEDEN!
UIN: 50302279
E-Mail: nikado@pc.nu
Speciality: I love C#, ASP.NET and C++!
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I've made a slight change to the way articles are displayed. Previously when you loaded up an article you also loaded up the entire discussion thread associated with that article. This is fine if you actually want to read the threads, but for those browsing the articles quickly and for agents such as search engines this adds load time without adding value. So - I now have it so that articles initially only show the number of messages posted plus a link. Click on the link and you can view the article with the messages attached as per normal.
It's slightly more inconvenient but reduces load on the site significantly and increases page load time by around 30%.
Comments?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Comments?
- Nice & snappy - a definite advantage.
- Comments are less accessible - a possible disadvantage: some articles have errata, update notes, links to related material, etc. listed in the comments, and these might be missed more easily now.
- Less chance of seeing my name come up in unrelated Google searches - probably an advantage.
It's a small thing, but the integrated message boards were always something that set CP apart for me. Somehow, clicking that extra link, no matter how little effort it takes to find, is a deterrent. Not sure what the solution is though, as you said it was slowing things down noticeably. Perhaps listing the first 10 or so message subjects (sorta like Threaded View)… Or providing an “errata” area that can be updated by the article author (even for edited articles)…
One thing i certainly appreciate is that clicking the link displays both the article and the messages - losing the ability to view the article and relevant messages together (as when you click “next page” on the forums) would be bad.
---
Shog9
Life seems pretty easy when it's from my easy chair
And you're burnin up inside and no one cares...
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Shog9 wrote:
It's a small thing, but the integrated message boards were always something that set CP apart for me. Somehow, clicking that extra link, no matter how little effort it takes to find, is a deterrent
That's exactly my worry. We'll try it out for a couple of days to see how it flies.
Shog9 wrote:
Perhaps listing the first 10 or so message subjects
This won't be any quicker than what we previously did.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
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Sounds cool to me. One added advantage is that people will realise what it is they are posting to, because they clicked a link to see it.
As some people may not like it, have you considered making it a preference ? Personally I would switch it to speed up the page loads.
Christian
No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
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Chris Maunder wrote:
It's slightly more inconvenient but reduces load on the site significantly and increases page load time by around 30%.
Following on what Shog and others have been saying maybe some of the following ideas will help.
- Have a setting in a member's profile which defines whether the article forums are shown automatically or not. Default it to no. You will get a site load reduction still, because of the 80% of members who won't switch it on, but not inconvienience power users who will switch it on an will be happy again.
- Only show the article forum if there are new posts (I assume use the same "new posts" code as is done for the normal forums)
- Automatically show the article forum the first time a member visits the article, and then not the next time they visit the article... though this probably is not going to help site load and tracking who has visited what may burden the server even more
Just some ideas
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Which explains why when Santa asked, "And what do you want for Christmas, little boy?" I said, "A life." (Accesories sold separately)
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The formatting at the bottom of articles is a bit different now that the forum area is back. The left-side light-orange column used to end at the forum, and the forum took up the whole width of the page. Now the column goes all the way down the page.
I know it's a little thing, but I noticed it. 
before - after
(yes, I'm bored. it's the weekend, it's slow here  )
--Mike--
Friday's GoogleFight results: Britney Spears 2,190,000 - Erica Weichers 23 
1ClickPicGrabber - Grab & organize pictures from your favorite web pages, with 1 click!
My really out-of-date homepage
Sonork-100.19012 Acid_Helm
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Saturday's Google Fight[^] results: Britney Spears 2,150,000 - Visual Basic 3,340,000 
"How many times do I have to flush before you go away?" - Megan Forbes, on Management (12/5/2002)
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