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John C wrote: I don't know if you've ever sold an app publicly and had to maintain and support it but the great strength of the .net framework is that (these days) it's all but guaranteed to be there and to be complete
Guess it depends who your customers are - If you sell to the great unwashed (!) then you can't rely on anything and latest version of .net is unlikely to be present. To a corporation then maybe.
Unmanaged is a lot easier these days and dll hell is a thing of the past - and that was another Microsoft great idea!
How do you tell a person on the end of a crackly phone that they have to download 300MByes of .net updates before his small application will work - The answer from the other end is usually not printable.
Microsoft .net designed for those indoors.......
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Bob1000 wrote: If you sell to the great unwashed (!) then you can't rely on anything and latest version of .net is unlikely to be presen
We *do* sell to the great "unwashed" masses and it's ultra rare that they don't have the requirements already in my experience. What you say was true back when we started with .net apps but it's very rare these days to not have the latest .net installed already, after all it's part of windows update itself.
In any case, those that never update their windows are not an ideal target market for *any* developer anyway wouldn't you agree? 
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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John C wrote: In any case, those that never update their windows are not an ideal target market for *any* developer anyway wouldn't you agree?
Ah - but their money is still as good as anyone else’s
Quit often we come across customers who don't have an internet connection or very low bandwidth ones. One customer last week had never updated his Vista on the grounds that connecting to the internet is risky - have to admit he did have a point!
and then there was the Windows ME customer today........ aggh!
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Bob1000 wrote: Ah - but their money is still as good as anyone else’
No unfortunately it's not because we provide free support and those people are a huge cost for us and a sale to a "bad" customer can easily cost far more in support than the sale of the licenses in the first place. Even if we charged for support they would be unhappy and often as not blame our software rather than their bad practices of not updating or following instructions and result in bad P.R. and bad feelings all around.
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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We do free support as well, and have a lot less support using unmanaged code (main product), we supply all the required dll's on the installation disk/download, so no risk of having 300MB download, we know it will work.
If Microsoft had kept .net smaller and simpler with WCF etc as separate modules for those that really need it, then everything would be a lot better - Yes it’s a typical Microsoft bloat technology (guess who wrote Vista!).
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hey i like Vista and .Net and wpf just just candy :P
Really i tried installing/trying xp on a computer that came with vista, and i saw xp as a little flaky (was running sp3 with all updates and required drivers), XP has a crappy UI (the vista UI doesn't get enough credit), and i saw when doing multitasking that the system looked to hang until the operations completed. Something that never happened when running vista 64bit ultimate. So i promptly formatted and put vista back.
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How in the world can it be considered as too bloated? It's practically a given that it's going to be pre-installed on any computer we want our software to run on and is easily installed on nearly any non windows platform and by today's standards it's tiny. We don't even have to distribute it. Bloat implies some kind of down side, there just isn't one. Does it have functionality I don't use and likely never will, sure but so what? It's like calling a bios too bloated, it's entirely irrelevant, it just doesn't factor in as an issue.
There can be no too bloated when us developers, (working developers who need to GET IT DONE quickly and reliably in the real world) get a boatload of time saving, tested, standardized functionality that replaces what, back in the day, was a seething byzantine morass of competing .dll files that were a nightmare to maintain or even worse home cooked code to reinvent the wheel doing boring but easily screwed up things like calculating time spans between two dates reliably.
The sheer fact that it's all but guaranteed to be there and so complete cuts down on overall bloat big time: you can install 20 different .net applications and the vast majority of the functionality is all courtesy of the clr so there is very little overlap.
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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The too bloated refers to installation pain.
For us developer we always play with the latest OSes and have big bandwidth to download all our latest stuff it's not so much of a problem.
But, believe it or not, for small ISV who target the general public, or even ISV who target the average company which has many 'many years old' computer. Getting the latest .NET framework installed on all client's machine can be a bit of a pain / challenge / hurdle...
The full .NET framework installer with 250MB size is a somewhat tough sale...
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
_________________________________________________________
My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
modified on Monday, June 22, 2009 10:13 AM
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Super Lloyd wrote: The too bloated refers to installation pain.
Maybe to you; not to me.
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Well, oops, silly me, I just discovered and realized the potential of
.NET Framewok 3.5 Development guide & exe[^]
today!  
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
_________________________________________________________
My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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Super Lloyd wrote: But, believe it or not, for small ISV who target the general public, or even ISV who target the average company which has many 'many years old' computer
Well believe it or not that describes our company and we've been doing .net apps for years and what you say *used* to be true but it's utterly rare these days to come across any system without the .net framework already installed and I know this to be true because we sell our software globally and quite regularly every day. A few years ago it was a slight pain in that it involved pointing people to windows update but these days it's about 1 in 200 computers that don't already have it installed.
Your point would have been great about 3 years ago, now it's just dated.
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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Haha, okay, I believe it! 
Hey, good to know!
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
_________________________________________________________
My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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"Bloat" could also refer to having too many different options for accomplishing the same ultimate goal.
When you're wading through hundreds of namespaces and thousands of classes and constantly have to stop and think about which class to use, especially among ones that have very similar, but slightly differing functionality, that's when it becomes a detriment to me.
I'd rather choose between 2 or 3 flavors of something, than 100 of them. Then again, maybe that's just me....
- S
50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
Code, follow, or get out of the way.
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Steve Echols wrote: "Bloat" could also refer to having too many different options for accomplishing the same ultimate goal.
I agree Steve. Especially if you kind of get forced to a continuous change in paradigms, as usually happens with MS.
Here I'm referring specifically to WPF (and in less measure to WCF). You get this quite large set of classes pumped into the framework to support the new technology, and a high pressure from the manufacturer to switch to it NOW! Cause it's BETTER! For ANYTHING and EVERYTHING!
Now, any other company would publish WPF as a standalone add-on and its adoption would be suggested for the areas where it suits best.
But maybe it's just you and me...
2+2=5 for very large amounts of 2
(always loved that one hehe!)
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No, its me too.
I think that the .NET framework is the best thing that has happened to software design EVER. But I still don't want to have to deal with WPF to get forms and controls to pop up. I went and relearned it all for WinForms, and WinForms works great. Just because WPF has some advantages, I can't go switching all my code over to the new paradigm.
The good thing is, I can just ignore .NET 3.5, be assured that everyone has 2.0, and keep writing against that. Or, if I want to use LINQ, I can target 3.5, but still use WinForms technology. And given the disk size/bandwidth available nowadays, I think the footprint is reasonable.
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Amen!
2+2=5 for very large amounts of 2
(always loved that one hehe!)
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John C wrote: There can be no too bloated when us developers, (working developers who need to GET IT DONE quickly and reliably in the real world) get a boatload of time saving,
Users?
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? My point was specifically about developers *and* users, perhaps you didn't read to the end. An end user will have far less "bloat" on their computer the more of their apps are .net based. That's just a fact. Beyond that they will also have far less bugs, far less conflicts, far less installation problems and far more consistency of use.
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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Bloated - yes. You can't presume latest will be installed on every computer, and you can't presume it can be downloaded easily to every computer. There is a real world out there!
Besides the nightmare of competing parts of .net, every new 'feature' is increasing the surface area of attack (both security and bugs) and makes it harder to choose the right technology. The words 'Foundation' or 'Presentation' should ring alarms bells -look at the History of these words in failed technology.
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Again, that's a valid point if this was 2000. We sell a .net app and it's very popular and availability is so scarce as to be a non issue entirely these days.
Any computers that can't download the .net framework and or haven't installed the latest windows update aren't really a group of customers we have much interest in anyway due to the nightmare of trying to support them. Thankfully they are rare and all but irrelevant.
As for surface area of attack you've got it completely back to front, I don't know how long you've been involved in development, but to have *one* single framework to develop against that is thoroughly tested and consistent versus the old days of a zillion 3rd party .dll's and even within windows itself a zillion different versions of all their .dll's was a security can of worms that would have been a disaster in the modern connected age.
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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Bob1000 wrote: You can't presume latest will be installed on every computer, and you can't presume it can be downloaded easily to every computer.
That's the customer's problem; at least we can say "this application requires .net X.Y" and they can procede from there.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: That's the customer's problem;
Until they switch to the competition because they don't know or care what .NET is and then it becomes your problem
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: Not at all.
Hey, you achieved Nirvana: "I don't care if the customers go to competition. The important thing is that I am happy while I am coding".
Maybe you should consider switching to Lisp? They have very similar point of view
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