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Calvin Fabre wrote: What is the atheists answer to the question, "Where did the universe come from?"
(Hint: "I don't know" is not a good answer)
"I don't know" is the answer. And it's a perfectly valid answer. Don't tell me you have all the answers. When you don't know an answer to something, you say, "I don't know". And it's perfectly acceptable. Of course, if not knowing something makes you ashamed, then you can say "God did it", and you can pretend to sound really intelligent.
The truth is no one knows for sure about the origins of the universe, if there's such a thing. No one was there to witness it.
In my opinion, the answer to that question is the same as your answer to the question, "Where did God come from?" Your answer is, "He's always been there." If you can accept that God has always existed, why is it so difficult to accept that the Universe has always existed? It may not have always existed like it does today, but it's always been there in one form or another. Are you aware of the law of Conservation of Mass? It states that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. What does that tell you about the universe?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut.
McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut.
Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama.
(Someone on the Internet)
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Al Beback wrote: "I don't know" is the answer. And it's a perfectly valid answer. When you don't know an answer to something, you say, "I don't know". And it's perfectly acceptable.
Not when you call someone an "idiot" because they have a better basis in logic than the person that can't answer the question.
Al Beback wrote: If you can accept that God has always existed, why is it so difficult to accept that the Universe has always existed?
Fine, you can say all day that the universe always existed. If you do then I am saying you have a huge amount of "faith" to believe that in light of the scientific evidence that says it did not (cf. Big Bang).
Al Beback wrote: No one was there to witness it.
Read my points. You don't have to be there if science tells you it had a beginning. If it has a beginning, you need a Beginner. Theist say that "Beginner" is an all-powerful, uncaused, eternal, intelligent being that has always existed. Makes perfect sense to me. The atheist has to say, "nothing" was the "Beginner." Who has more faith? Hint: The atheist.
Al Beback wrote: why is it so difficult to accept that the Universe has always existed?
Because science (cosmology) and the Big Bang tell us otherwise. I do have faith in science and philosophical principles.
Al Beback wrote: Are you aware of the law of Conservation of Mass? It states that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. What does that tell you about the universe?
Actually, a "law" in that sense cannot make "can" and "cannot" statements because as you pointed out, "no one was there to witness it [all moments in time]." The law means, "in a closed system it is observed that no new matter is created." What do you think of the Second Law? It works quite well with the Big Bang, right?
We need a better forum for this discussion. You see, if that second guy would not have called the first guy an "idiot" I would be sleeping by now.
Cheers,
-Calvin (Nobama: If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it is free)
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Gosh... never quite expected such a torrent.
I should not have used the word 'idiot'. For that, I apologise. 'Misguided' perhaps, 'deluded' maybe. For what it's worth, I'm one of those who voted "I've already lost my job" because I have. The recession has claimed me as of two weeks ago.
Those who put blind faith in some supernatural invisible sky being as the solution to their Earthly problems just aren't living in the real world. The real world is facing home reposession, no money for food, children's clothes, petrol, and warmth for the coming winter.
Will God pay my gas bill? I don't think so.
Outmoded superstitious nonsense is no substitute for three square meals a day and a roof over your family's head... no matter what anyone says.
FWIW, the Universe as we know it was created out of the Big Bang. Scientific and provable fact. What caused the Big Bang - nobody really knows - but it was caused by *something*. Most likely a build up of pressure from an infinitely dense and infinitely small Universe, but the laws of physics break down the closer you get to the point of Boom! Hence the Large Hadron Collider.
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StockportJambo wrote: FWIW, the Universe as we know it was created out of the Big Bang. Scientific and provable fact. What caused the Big Bang - nobody really knows - but it was caused by *something*. Most likely a build up of pressure from an infinitely dense and infinitely small Universe, but the laws of physics break down the closer you get to the point of Boom!
Sorry, but that seems like a cop-out. By admission you leaving the "laws of physics" and venturing into the non-scientific realm of your own faith. Science does not observe complex universes springing from nothing creating personal, rational, and complex, self-aware, moral free-agent beings does it?
However, self-evident laws of logic tells us you can't give what you don't have, plus Maria and Captain Von Trapp sings, "nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could" in "The Sound of Music" -- that's good science, baby.
StockportJambo wrote: Will God pay my gas bill? I don't think so.
No, but the brain, fingers, and skills He gave you can.
Hey, if He can create a universe out of nothing, helping you pay the rent is cake.
Cheers,
Calvin
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Calvin Fabre wrote: Sorry, but that seems like a cop-out. By admission you leaving the "laws of physics" and venturing into the non-scientific realm of your own faith. Science does not observe complex universes springing from nothing creating personal, rational, and complex, self-aware, moral free-agent beings does it?
It's not a cop-out to say "we don't know". We don't. That is what faith is for like you say. Maybe you think the search for a scientific cause for the Big Bang is the search for scientific proof of 'God', it doesn't really matter. Cop-out or not, this is where we are in terms of our understanding of the Universe in 2008. It's an exciting time to be alive. I don't like it when people try and push me back a few thousand years to the realms of superstition and religious dogma, when scientific proof is staring everyone in the face.
Calvin Fabre wrote:
However, self-evident laws of logic tells us you can't give what you don't have, plus Maria and Captain Von Trapp sings, "nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could" in "The Sound of Music" -- that's good science, baby.
You're basing your argument on what is sung in some cheesy film musical? 
Calvin Fabre wrote: StockportJambo wrote:
Will God pay my gas bill? I don't think so.
No, but the brain, fingers, and skills He gave you can.
It just so happens I got another job, so the wolf is kept from the door for another day. I got it because I'm good at what I do. The reason I'm good at what I do is because I work & study very hard to get that way. 'God' has nothing to do with it. If I was a really bad developer, you may have a point. But even then it could just be down to random chance & luck.
But as Einstein said, God does not play with dice.
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Nothing comes out of vanity. Where were you before ( your age ) years back? Did you have an address at that time? And think from what you came from; out of a "nasty" sperm? Now you have become a 'complete' man and now you have an address right? An existent invisible supernatural being did all these.
StockportJambo wrote: And the shops will just give me food for me and my family, because God will pay for it.
Man needs to discharge his duty; He will discharge His duty 
"Silence will create respect and dignity; justice and fair play will bring more friends;
benevolence and charity will enhance prestige and position; courtesy will draw benevolence;
service of mankind will secure leadership and good words will overcome powerful enemies"
Ali (Peace be upon him)
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Nisamudheen wrote: An existent invisible supernatural being did all these.
Nope. SockportJambo did it himself. The invisible sky wizard gets zero credit for that... unless you also want to give him credit for killing that family of five yesterday on their way home when a drunk driver hit them head-on? What about that tornado that the sky wizard decided to unleash upon a town in Texas killing a little girl? Is this the God you've been sucking up to?
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut.
McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut.
Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama.
(Someone on the Internet)
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If I'm sleeping under a park bench, I have to have faith it's where God wants me to be. OK, that's a bit of an oversimplification - I (personally) do not believe God ever WANTS anyone to suffer in any way whatsoever. But I believe God takes the bad situation you're in and turns it into something wonderful, to His glory, if you let him.
I've had plenty, I've had next-to-nothing. Through it all, He's been there. He always will.
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I respect your thoughts Nisamudheen , But all these chaos is created by us (here "us" is Not US  ) itself right.
So like 'US fed' closed their eyes (or shut the doors) infront of LehMAN ('lay' man) brothers , the God will close his eyes to this issue.Don't ask me why? If you insist , well He/She(god) is busy with next 'US' election campaign.
Are you sure GOD want you to be here?
modified on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 6:04 AM
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Nisamudheen wrote: What if you loose your job in a booming economy? Who will you blame for that?
God. 
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I volunteered for many years in the mental health community for a local crisis line. After doing that for a year or so my church recruited me to do the same thing for church members (with the addition of prayer of course).
During that time I created my own personal “Religious to Secular Terms” dictionary. I did that so that what I learned in each environment could be generalized. (Yes, I know that makes me a geek – that’s why I read codeproject).
Amazingly, most religious terms translate pretty well to the secular world.
In this particular case, telling someone who’s grieving (for a job loss or anything else) that “Its gods will” is equivalent to saying “Sh*t happens” in the secular world.
Both sayings have a grain of truth to them, but all this really does is minimize the experience that another is going through. This is truly heartless and callous.
The difference between the secular and religious world in the particular example, is someone saying “Sh*t happens” in the secular world knows they are being an a**hole while the religious person might actually believe they are providing comfort.
Either way it’s still heartless and callous.
Keith Rule
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Keith Rule wrote: Either way it’s still heartless and callous.
Sh*t happens
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Mladen Jankovic wrote: Sh*t happens
The perfect secular response. You made my day.
Keith Rule
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Keith Rule wrote: The difference between the secular and religious world in the particular example, is someone saying “sh*t happens” in the secular world knows they are being an a**hole while the religious person might actually believe they are providing comfort.
It really depends on the way it is said and the relationship the two parties have with each other.
"Sh*t happens" is typically said among close friends as another way of saying, "Oh well, that sucks, but you know what, it happens. Don't let it bring you down and move on."
"It's God's will" is typically used to make people believe that there's a good reason behind the misfortune, since God's behind it. So since God is behind it, you're not supposed to grieve because grieving would indicate to God that you don't approve of his divine plan. That would make God angry and he would subsequently add you to his sh*t list and put you on the short road to hell, which you may just get to know very soon if you don't stop grieving! "So stop it already, you God hating freak!"
See the difference? 
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut.
McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut.
Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama.
(Someone on the Internet)
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Nisamudheen wrote: He will provide the means for whom He wishes and He will prevent the means for whom He wishes.
God is imaginary.[^]
Obama's plan gives me a $400 per year tax cut.
McCain's plan gives me a $80 per year tax cut.
Would rather be one of the lucky few to have taxes raised by Obama.
(Someone on the Internet)
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Nisamudheen wrote: GOD Is Great
yeah, I'd say so, as God is in my underpants... 
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I have chosen a "I'm not too worried about my job" option, but a propability that I fail so many courses that they would kick me off is really low by now. However, a little worry motivates me to learn an apparently useless stuff sometimes. 
BTW, an increasing density of job polls on the CP caused me to adopt such questions to my current life situation. And I'm not certainely sure if it is a good thing.
Greetings - Gajatko
Portable.NET is part of DotGNU, a project to build a complete Free Software replacement for .NET - a system that truly belongs to the developers.
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LOL @ --> "I'm untouchable. I laugh in the face of a recession."
I lol'ed pretty hard when I read that choice!! hahaha
Later,
Greg
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And never had one either.
So I can't lose it - would that mean that I should vote "I'm not worried at all about my job" .. ? 
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No, you're untouchable. You laugh in the face of a recession.
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I hope you're not over 25 years old!
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Your mother must be so proud.
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She works for TRW, production forecaster/planer for maker of auto parts, not real rosy picture in that area. luckily 90 percent of what they make goes overseas.
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... it's the corporate nonsense.
I've got one group I'm required work with that's fairly openly trying to take my group's job away. These guys are incredibly adept at self-promotion.
Our newest project's schedule is unachievable. We all feel like we're being maneuvered into failing so that they can terminate us for cause, thereby avoiding any severance issues.
Software Zen: delete this;
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