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Once upon a time, I was an employee of the US Federal Government. I learned a lot of the rules and laws (made quite the nusiance of myself). One of them has to do with entitlements.
Skipping the anecdote that is used to introduce the concept, I learned that one must accept an entitlement. At first this sounds crazy, but I discovered that the Federal Work Rules are very well thought out. Here's why:
Suppose employee 1 and 2 are both asked to stay late and work.
Let's profile employee 1 as single, living alone.
and
Let's profile employee 2 as supporting a family, mortgage, college, etc.
Both are asked to stay late. Employee 1 is in a better postion to work free if he so chooses. This gives him an (unfair) advantage over employee 2. The federal law requires that both receive either overtime, or if they're in a higher position, compensatory time off. They cannot, in fact, refuse this compensation. Why?
Let's consider something like a minimum wage law. If an employee were to be legally allowed to voluntarily work for less, then, by definition, there is no longer a minimum wage law.
The same should apply to overtime (certainly if it's more than an occasional emergency event). Otherwise, the employees will be put at one anothers' throats to undercut and stay employed (ref: See trade unions)
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol
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No such thing, however, as overtime, per se. No "overtime rate", either, that many other craftsmen enjoy.
The (Sort of) cavaet is that I don't nickel and dime the people who put the food on my plate. If I get in a coding mode, or whatever, I will often just do it because it's something I like to do.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol
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If I have committed to a date and it looks like I'm going to miss it with just a regular 37hr week then I will put in extra unpaid overtime.
However, if its my boss or a project manager that has committed to a deadline without my consent then thats their own fault and they can put the extra hours in themselves!
I often get approached by others to do *urgent jobs* but always ask the question 'OK I can do it - but what do you want me to drop to make room for it?'. If they have to make these hard decisons themselves then quite often they wander off and try their luck on someone else. In most circumstances *Urgent* jobs are simply *importantant* jobs that haven't been given enough priority in the past.
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If I had been paid for all the overtime I've put in I might well have a house as nice as my employer. That irks me if I think about it so I try not to think about it.
It's my fault but I do the extra work through necessity (like just about everyone else on codeproject) and because I have to pay the bills, however, I'm changing my job this September and going to work for a company where the hours are 35 per week. I will also be working flexitime so what I now call overtime will just be taken out of my weekly work requirement.
I think flexible working hours can be a partial answer to this problem of expecting IT bods to work till they drop. If one has to work out of hours because there's no other practical time to do something then knowing one can legitimately take the next morning off makes a big difference and goes a long way to removing stress caused by annoyance and others bad judgement.
Companies are run in a very immature way generally, with back biting, one upmanship, seeing who can squeeze the most out of their subordinates etc, and all these things at the cost of someone. That someone being more often than not you and me.
I would love to see the entire IT community simply refuse to do unpaid overtime. Unpaid work happens because of bad planning, bad targets, bad management and badly trained developers. All of these problems are curable!
Any company that makes no effort to be realistic when quoting for work is signing away your personal life and possibly your health too, and the bad news is that this happens all of the time. You know it. I know it. Are you someone who craves to keep up with developments but your company is stuck in the stone age? That's incredibly stressful and leads you to devalue your own worth and abilities. It also ties you into their draconian life style. Retrain, leave.
Yes the market is tough, but who trusts a company to deliver if they quoted a ridiculously short or cheap project cost? You and I know that they'll lose their developers like leaves blowing away in autumn, and a project that doesn't have consistent developers is either going to be an unmaintainable rats nest or simply fail.
It isn't rocket science, it's just a matter of you and I suffering the consequences of someone elses untruths.
Slavery is not dead, but how much of that "employer owns you body and soul" attitude are you willing to put up with?
Ah, we're all too professional to make waves, me included! So we just steadily migrate between jobs looking for the one that causes the least pain...
Maybe the answer is for us to start a database of "good" employers, with reasons why we think they are. If there was an award for a "Top Employer" that they could stick on their website, wouldn't that be a nice carrot? Mind you, they would be inundated with CVs!
Cheers all. Good luck.
Dave
Software Developer
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You must be happy because you get paid for your real work 
Many years ago I got paid for OT but this is past ... but we have a bonus system ... the disadvantage is that you have to wait more than a year to get your money for OT (OT up to 20 hours / month) 
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10 hours worked in a day minus 2 hours cruising CodeProject equals 8 hour workday...
So, if you don't hang out here you can go home on time! 
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I get paid straight overtime (same rate as regular time) or I have the option to bank overtime hours into my vacation time (1 hour overtime == 1 hour vacation time).
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I work for local goverment and we are not allowed to work any overtime unless is has been pre-approved. I just had my 6 month review and had a negative as I have had 15 to 30 minutes of overtime per week and that is too much!
I have been in the IT field for 26 years and this is the first place I have ever worked where there is no overtime.
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Doesn't that just suck? I mean, they don't mandate or budget OT BUT if you generally have more work than you can finish in an 8 hour work day, "They" bust your chops for OT or "They" bust your chops for not completing your work.
Having worked in IT all of my adult life, I can definitely say that some problems just take more time to solve, especially if there is any customer service (this could mean supporting co-workers) involved.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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We have so many projects in the queue and there is no way to get them all completed. Last I heard, there were 118 request submitted and I average getting two a month completed. Typical government standards.
However, I do not mind not working overtime as I get to spend a lot of time with my active kids (single dad raising three) and some time for myself. It's also easier scheduling for evening events (cub scout meetings) and not have to worry about work being a conflict.
I think I need to push for the typical goverment employees standards where one guy works on a pothole while the other six just watch. One programs and the other's just rest on their shovels on watch!
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Hey can you sign me up? I need a job where I can get paid decent, stay closer to home, and have some sort of life. - especially now that my child is out of the house and I can be single instead of a single parent.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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The pay is very low. However, the work is perfect. I get to use all the new technologies for development and we are always getting new hardware and the latest Microsoft software.
I work for a state-of-art library so there is a lot fun working here, plus we implement new technology all the time. Although it's the lowest salary I have had, the trade-off for creating new applications, the technology and the 40 hour work week are worth it (plus great benefits).
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I bet you still beat my paltry pay. I'm a Tech Writer III and get paid Tech Writer I salary. I can't move to a city that would support me - heck I can't even move to the city where I work...Gotta love America (and I do!).
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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I just read one of your other posts: You have a 4 hour commute - WOW! - that is way too long. Mine is 20 minutes one way. What city do you work in?
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I work in Shreveport Louisiana and unfortunately it is 2 hours (as long as I follow the speed limit) from my house to my office. Just one way. Factor in morning traffic if I don't get off to an early start and that adds about 20 minutes. I generally have to be at work by 6 or 6:30 AM. And I'll get off around 5 to 5:30 PM. Evening traffic is worse - I think all the idiots are out and about by then. There have been times it took me an hour just get from one side of the city to the other all by interstate - so make the commute back 3 hours on those days. Blech. So I try and stay an extra hour after to avoid traffic and if work permits.
Current gas prices don't help. When I took this job, it wasn't so dire financially. Gas was fluctuating between 2.00 and 2.15
I've thought about getting a job closer to home which would mean a complete career change - but that would literally drop me to around 10.00 an hour and that's if I'm lucky..
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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That kind of commute is a killer. One job I had was an hour, and I felt so wiped out when I got home, I had no energy or motivation to do anything around the house.
I have no idea you can do that commute every day without going bonkers.
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Yep been doing for going on 3 years now...and I am bonkers...desperately seeking another solution LOL.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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I hope you get some sort of travel compensation ![Rose | [Rose]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
Yusuf
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It's not worth it to me. If I worked somewhere and they started requiring OT (paid or not) I would quit. I realize I make less money than I would if I did work OT, but I'd rather be happy.
Basically, the time after 5pm is worth more to me then anyone I know of is willing to pay.
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Here, here! 
I agree but I can't be as strict. I mostly avoid OT but sometimes end up having to work it... But If I do, it is minimal.
Regards,
Frank
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I suppose if I had a life after 5 pm, I would feel the same way as you. As it stands 4 hours a day in my life is already wasted commuting, and I work an 11 hour day - four days a week, so, that really leaves me 7 hours left in a day to basically sleep. I might as well work an extra hour. That way I can have a guiltless 3 day weekend and little spending money. 
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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You need to find a new job or move closer. 4 hours?!
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Well I don't have the resources to train for a new career that would pay remotely what I get paid now which would enable me to possibly move closer to home. It's the traditional catch 22 situation that keeps the lower middle class beat down :P.
And yes 4 hours...2 down and 2 back. Mostly 45 and 55 mph two lane highway.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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I don't have anything against OT, just I'm against working OT when I'm not getting paid for it. If I'm getting paid hourly I don't mind a couple of extra hours. (Never had a programming position that paid hourly.) However, when I'm on salary, I put in my 40 hours and call it a work week. I get the same amount of money if I work late or not, so I see no reason to work extra hours.
jgehman
Software Engineer
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