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The problem you have these days is that people want to jump in and just create highly visible programs to look cool when creating big (on screen) applications with as little code as possible.
I see myself as "old school" when it comes to development. You have to understand what you are using (hardware and software) before using it.
I find that most people shy away from coding and rather use clicking and dragging for development 
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Unfortunately you are right.
Today most people see computers as "gadgets" rather than programmable computing machines.
This means that fewer and fewer people are concerned with the essence of developing and more and more people stay concentrated on the looks of the ready-made gadget (which they view as a 'black box' they know how to use  but they don't care to learn how to programm  ).
However the fact that people who care about real programming and the inner workings of PCs still exist, is a good thing. 
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the language of kings 
void izmoto(char* szKwazi);
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1) GWBasic/BASICA in early school days
2) Fortran/C/C++ in college second year
3) VB (brief entry) and then into Visual C++
4) The professional career background was with ASP/VBScript. Then into Microsoft .NET
For some reason, whenever something with VB comes near me, that actually and automatically withers off. 
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar
Personal Homepage
Tech Gossips
A pessimist sees only the dark side of the clouds, and mopes; a philosopher sees both sides, and shrugs; an optimist doesn't see the clouds at all - he's walking on them. --Leonard Louis Levinson
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IMHO, starting language for studying is 'Scheme' (lisp dialect) and famous
book SICP (Structure and Interpretation of computer programs). Scheme/Lisp is
a very powerful language which can be extended with new syntax, i.e. you
can implement language in language. Starting with Lisp can give you wisdom of many fundamental conceps which are present in many modern languages like c#.
If you want to become commercial style coder as soon as possible, than the best choice probably whould be c#/java (i prefer c#) which have big codebase, coding
traditions and are actively used over the world.
If your target is low-level system or game programming (or anything requiring
performance or hardware access) than you should learn c/c++. Before starting
with c++, newbie should now that c++ is DIFFICULT language and you spend a lot
of time for mastering it. There are many people saying c++ is the best ... please ignore them - make your OWN opinion. If you still plan to study c++, please look at www.boost.org ... they are real masters, which know everything about c++
If you need language to write small utils QUICKLY than the best choice would be
Python/Ruby/Perl (i prefer Python). Python is a clean language with powerful
syntax and big codebase. Probably same is true for Ruby. And Perl is a language
with poor syntax/design, but with huge codebase and powerful in dealing with text.
If you plan to become web programmer, than you SHOULD learn javascript and HTML DOM. Additionally you should learn at least one server side programming language: c#&ASP.Net, java&JSP, PHP, Python&ZOPE, Ruby&(...). Even if you are
plan to write single-page AJAX application (with no server side functionality for page generation) you still need server side language for writing web services. Additionally you should study XSLT (+XML) which is a semi-programming
language for Data->HTML conversion.
Be patient the best prgoramming language is still not invented
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Around 8 year back, when I started learning professional programming in my college, I was introduced to pascal, there I learn basic structuring of program,i.e. how to write program in procedural way, learn to write array,function and procedure ( procedure in pascal is like function in C++ with no return values). after that I tried to learn C++ without knowing ABC of C. and now working in VC++.
Though I first introduced to computer in 1991, when I used to play basic computer game and use to program in BASIC afterward.. GOTO START . though I believe nobody is using BASIC anymore these days.
"Opinions are neither right nor wrong. I cannot change your opinion. I can, however, change what influences your opinion." - David Crow
Never mind - my own stupidity is the source of every "problem" - Mixture
cheers,
Alok Gupta
VC Forum Q&A :- I/ IV
Support CRY- Child Relief and You/codeProject$$>
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I started with BASIC (on an ORIC-1), then some more BASIC (ZX-Spectrum, Commodore 64), then QBasic and QuickBASIC. Later on, I moved to ASM, then TURBO Pascal, and finally C++. I don't know if I have ever done any "pure" C programming.
Ask not whether it is useful. Ask what it is useful for.
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I started with BASIC too, but i realy learned to program in HL language when i learned Pascal. So i think the entry level should be (OO) Pascal.
Afterwards you can continue in any direction.
ANSI C/C++ is a good start too.
If you are realy young and you have the time, i recomend assembler and some knowledge of computer architecture + binary operations.
The most important thing is who is your teacher or the author of the book you read. When i was forced to learn programming in Windows from a book called "QUE - Special Edition Using Visual C++ 6" i almost droped Windows forever. Luckily i've found The Forgers tutorial on win32 programming and later "Programming Windows" from Charles Petzold.
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Herl the Pearl wrote: don't know if I have ever done any "pure" C programming.
same here never tried my hand in pure "C"
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Yes. C is the best language to start with. The reason is its closeness to the assembly language and its openness to the high level language constructs.
Feel it yourself!
"Silence will create respect and dignity; justice and fair play will bring more friends;
benevolence and charity will enhance prestige and position; courtesy will draw benevolence;
service of mankind will secure leadership and good words will overcome powerful enemies"
Ali (Peace be upon him)
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Well there is C and C. The first incarnation of C was good for doing things but not for theaching beginners, IMHO. Later the ANSI C standard adopted many features of Pascal, in the way the source should look like and ANSI C++ even more. So i gues ANSI C/C++ is good enough for teaching begginers.
Way better than languages that have garbage collectors and massive libraries for doing all kinds of stuff.
ps - I now see that the title is for developers, not programmers (or even coders), so maybe the best starting point realy is .net or whatever is "hot" on the market. Sorry, my fault.
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Partially agree! I begin with C++ and after 1 year I learn VB. After that 4 years I used VB! It's very important what application you want to write. VB offers a short and convenient way to write good applications! Not always you need C++! It's an old and wrong discussion! You don't go with Ferrari to buy 1 kilo potato! For that you go with Ford or something like that! You must be practical!
I learn C++, VB, VBScript, JavaScript, ASP! I try to work almost three months with VB.Net and it's enough! It's not worth it! Better C++, JAVA, Python!
Now I want to learn a good language for future online application and with all recent changes I'm confuse!
http://www.kraftwin.blogspot.com
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I definitelly do not agree to this. C is a very powerful langugage, but it's not easy to learn for a beginner. It allows (and sometimes even requires) the use of very bad programming patterns and styles. Beginners should be enforced to use good style, correct variable declarations and stuff like this. Therefore, even if one wants to become a C or C++ programmer (as most probably do), I'd suggest learning Pascal or C# first, because they enforce a beginner to the "good" style of programming from the beginning.
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I dissagree with you as C FORCES you to define all your variable AT THE TOP of the current section of code.
it also teaches you to garbage collect, and if you use it properly (Don't abuse) then it works a lot better than C#, and even (sometimes) pascal. it also handles pointers, and reference based structures very well and doesn't have (what are to me) stange constructs to create a raw pointer. Just malloc() free().
However, I do say that Pascal would be an equal starting language to C.
The worst thing about the darkness is the light at the end - DX-MON
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I cannot simply agree with your views. As you said, C is powerful. In my experience, in order to become a developer who never fall short of ideas, one has to go through the hardship of learning a language like C.
I equally agree with you on Pascal. But as for C#, of course it offers nice features. But the problem is it hides a lot of things under the hood. What do you prefer for a programmer to first start with C and then C# or to first start with C# and then C? First option is better because it will ease the things because a C programmer would have achieved a good understanding of memory management, IO, use of CPU registers etc.
"Silence will create respect and dignity; justice and fair play will bring more friends;
benevolence and charity will enhance prestige and position; courtesy will draw benevolence;
service of mankind will secure leadership and good words will overcome powerful enemies"
Ali (Peace be upon him)
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You're right. I was maybe a bit short-handed on C# here. I agree that one has to learn the basics of memory managing, IO, etc the "hard way". What I don't like about C for beginners is that you're allowed to do a lot of odd things, like fiddling with the preprocessor more than necessary, doing manual address computations (where it's not really required), using a bunchload of global variables and stuff like that. That's why I think C# (or Java) may even be a bether choice than C in some ways. But preferably one learns Pascal first, which is as powerful as C but without some of its pitfalls.
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In other words if someone has a natural curiosity and is willing to continually learn new things then they will be fine. I guess that goes for a developer's whole career, not just their first steps.
If someone is lazy and incurious then their programming will never get anywhere, regardless of the language they learn on. In my opinion it's from this pool of people that "evangelists" emerge.
Murray
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Tend to agree here.. curiosity has kept me in the game when others were long gone.
modified on Monday, April 7, 2008 11:55 PM
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The noobs must learn the right way to program -- without side effects.
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and whats with F# then he will get it half right
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Where is any functional language?
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In my opinion, the most important aspect of training NEW programmers is not at all making sure they understand the fundamentals. I am talking about the beginning stages, where I feel that getting the student to ACTUALLY CODE must be the first goal.
Once, the student sees results, that may motivate the person to take on more complex tasks and thus realize the need for further understanding of the underlying system. Therefore, it is my belief that any talented/motivated student will automatically seek information about the very basics.
In other words, FIRST make it very cool (motivation), THEN show them the REAL truth (understanding). I am no authority on the subject, but that is how I would train my students, regardless of what they are learning, cooking, drumming, programming, or something different.
With that in mind, I would choose the language that seems the easiest to pick up and use real quick.
Ask not whether it is useful. Ask what it is useful for.
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A voice of sanity in what looks to be a lot of posts that are completely out of touch with the reality of a beginner learning to program.
"The pursuit of excellence is less profitable than the pursuit of bigness, but it can be more satisfying."
- David Ogilvy
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The issue isn't 'what is the best implementation language', but 'how do we best train developers just starting out'.
I've been a software engineer for 24 years.. the biggest gap I've discovered in developers fresh out of school is in understanding the architectural underpinnings of modern languages, and how those languages 'meet with the metal'.. how they work on the hardware in question.
It points to a severe gap in basic understanding of the low level mechanism of the hardware. And note that this isn't just 'nice to know'. Understanding the systems we program at a low level also translates to better approaches in troubleshooting problems that occur, since the programmer isn't restricted to looking at the system 'just through the lens of the langauge he is using'.
To that end, learning the low level is the first step of understanding. In much the same way that an architect is made useful by his knowledge of basic construction techniques, programmers are made effective by their understanding of the hardware and how it plus the low level expression of the software translate into modern programs. No matter how much I see young folks trying to escape this, it remains as true today as when I started.
On the seemingly endless argument on 'ideal language'.. languages have use based on their application, not by nature of their existance. Its why researchers continue to experiment and look for better ways, and why there continue to be a plethora of languages. Ladder Logic on PLCs meets its industrial control needs very well, just as Java and C# meets the needs of its users. Its all about application.
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