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I'm not sure what you/they mean when you wrote "they do everything inside the application code"
The reporting?
If so, good thing you moved on. Also, it's rare and kind of off putting for an interviewer to say something like "your way of thinking is outdated"
It tells me you've got a primadonna infestation in that team.
When I interviewed for Expedia, some interviewer asked me to defend my lack of a BS degree.
It was at that point that I responded "I just whiteboarded all of your problems, because while you were struggling through English lit to round out your requirements, I was coding, so defend your degree first - after all I didn't pay 80k for mine"
I didn't get the job I didn't want at that point anyway.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: asked me to defend my lack of a BS degree.
That is entirely stupid line of interviewing. So, interviewer just wants to have an argument about, "Is it necessary to have a college degree?"
honey the codewitch wrote: "I just whiteboarded all of your problems, because while you were struggling through English lit to round out your requirements, I was coding, so defend your degree first - after all I didn't pay 80k for mine"
Of course there can be value in a college degree, but there is nothing that 100% proves you'll be a good dev anyways.
Maybe they should make their litmus test: Have you read the entire The Art of Computer Programming by Knuth?
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raddevus wrote: Maybe they should make their litmus test: Have you read the entire The Art of Computer Programming by Knuth?
I own and have read all four volumes. Knuth simply isn't that good outside the theoretical arena, using mathematical syntax and making APL look readable. (Yes, I wrote some in APL back in high school.) There are far better books on the same subjects.
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I would have gone to uni probably had my mental health and housing situation not been dreadfully unstable through my teens. When I landed at Microsoft at 18 it was a lifeline, so I never went to higher ed - i was too busy working.
I'm going to make a confession - I have only read excerpts of Knuth. I find such material far too dry and math formalisms confound me.
What I liked was the whiteboards. Those are what saved me. Implement an AVL tree on a whiteboard. Okay.
Implement atoi. Okay
That got me through my entry level years.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I've been working in IT for >33 years now.
For the past 20 years, each year I'll go out to O'Reilly.com account, pull up one of the volumes of The Art of Programming and read 2 or 3 paragraphs then bail out. Until the next year when I do it all again.
honey the codewitch wrote: I'm going to make a confession - I have only read excerpts of Knuth.
Uh, yeah, me too. And, it's the same paragraph or two every year. 
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Self-taught? So am I.
What is a BS degree anyway? It's a directed learning path, with some discussion, a bunch of lecturing, a lot of book reading, and a little experimentation. That's something we can do entirely on our own without spending $80K on it.
Hell, we can even get the same/updated books, keep them to boot, and not spend the kind of money on them the students are getting fleeced for!
Of course, we do a lot more work experimenting and learning, but that's the fun part!
The only downside is a lack of feedback on our work.
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Any time I hear stuff like this it reminds me of an interview with Scientific Atlanta. At the time I was a pure C coder, dabbled in C++ and I could spell object oriented. This was back in the day when companies spent BILLIONS making sure it was all designed OO and never produced anything. The techies were great, I answered all of their questions, actually debugged a problem that had been plaguing them, but the PM and the architect were two of the most pretentious pricks I ever had the displeasure to meet.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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honey the codewitch wrote: It was at that point that I responded "I just whiteboarded all of your problems, because while you were struggling through English lit to round out your requirements, I was coding, so defend your degree first - after all I didn't pay 80k for mine"
HA!
That's awesome.
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I had a mouth on me in my twenties.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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That's to be applauded.
Who knows where you'd be right now if you had held back and gone with them anyway...
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absolutely full of piss and vinegar. I love it.
May I ask, do you just contract, corp to corp etc?
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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I contract. nothing fancy.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Not exactly the same situation, but I had something similar. At the beginning one guy (tech guru of the dept.) was getting really annoying with questions and arguments against me. I just stood up and said: "Up to this point, I do not care if you take me, I don't want to work with such a guy" and left.
2 years later, job was still not occupied... what a surprise!
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I know someone that nobody can/will work with.
It's not because of their demeanor though they can be a bit abrasive, it's more awkward than egotistical.
The reason nobody can work with them is that they developed the entire infrastructure for their websites from the ground up over the course of decades, in PHP and JS.
No JQuery, no React, none of that, but all those features - yes- hand rolled.
Funny thing that nobody can learn it.
"But I documented it thoroughly"
"You don't understand: You can't google it. Documentation can't answer arbitrary questions, and you don't have the time to give a course"
They and their employer are both too invested. And they're all making good money, but they can't grow their business as a result.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: And they're all making good money, but they can't grow their business as a result.
What it is more than expected, logical in that case.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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They could bring on other people if they updated their tech stack to use modern, off the shelf tools.
I don't think the person I'm talking about is willing to work that way though. NIH in the extreme.
When I worked with them, I did discuss this with them, but didn't get very far.
To my credit, they said I was the one dev that they found they'd be willing to work with again. But I can't do it, for my sanity. And I wasn't able to deliver at the rate that I usually can because I was constantly tripping over what I didn't know about their system.
It's kind of unfortunate too. I actually went to high school with them, and they found out through the grapevine that I was in the field, so they contacted me through a mutual friend. I liked working with them, but I just couldn't be effective to the degree *I* was satisfied with using their tools.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: I liked working with them, but I just couldn't be effective to the degree *I* was satisfied with using their tools.
And that's what matters most at the end of the day.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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honey the codewitch wrote: some interviewer asked me to defend my lack of a BS degree.
I can spit out massive amounts of BS without any degree.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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I don't believe that you were wrong in your answer.
Stored Procedures are, as you say, closer to the database and so can be more efficient. They are also more secure - the only data that is passed are the parameters, and the only data that is returned is the resulting dataset. OTOH, making changes to Stored Procedures requires changes to the database. The DBA therefore becomes the critical path for any changes.
(I assume that the programmers are working on their own development copy of the database, but the database instance is still the single point of change.)
Doing the same work at the application's data level is much slower (the data must be read from the database, processed, and filtered), is less secure (tables must be open to reading/modification over the network, data must be passed over the network and is open to snooping), but the DBA is no longer on the critical path. This may be more important to some organizations than efficiency and security.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
modified 16-Sep-24 6:55am.
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I think your answer was correct, but it all depends on the situation of course and how the company's database is managed.
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So they want to change the ordering of data used for a report - they have to,change the app code, recompile, and redeploy - and they say your thinking is outdated ! I wouldn't want to work with them at any price. Walk away - and yes, I think you did dodge a bullet. 
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Cezar Lamann wrote: Did I dodge a bullet
Yes.
Your response of the use of DB stored procedures being situational was correct, them assuming that you were a proponent of using SPs all the time is their mistake and pretty stupid.
There also maybe a person in the team who could've been your peer or worse, superior who do things their way and won't change for whatever reason. Keep miles away.
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Yeah, you dodged a bullet.
You even told them why it's better than doing it in-code. It seems they've forgotten why you don't do everything in-code.
Their way seems to be a pile of security holes with performance issues. They may also be trying to save money on IT operations by skipping the DBA's required to write and maintain the databases and their SQL code.
Congratulations, Neo.
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Dave Kreskowiak wrote: Their way seems to be a pile of security holes with performance issues.
I'm going to print this on a poster. This sentence is poetry.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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