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jschell wrote: That is a very popular language
So was gwbasic once, but that doesn't mean that it is suited for real life applications nor learning how to program.
jschell wrote: So learning it is a good thing.
It can't hurt to learn to read it, but don't ever expect me to use it in a business environment 
jschell wrote: But myself I figure that with 5 years of job experience a degree is meaningless.
I'm at 20+ years.
Still, I'm asked if there's a degree, because it makes a difference in what they'll pay for you.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: So was gwbasic once, but that doesn't mean that it is suited for real life applications nor learning how to program.
Sorry but no that is not an argument.
As a professional programmer the point is to deliver products/services for the company you work for. Not focus on odd ideals.
Companies are using PHP. They are looking to hire people that know how to use it. And the market share is increasing.
Certainly there are some more marketable languages out there but that is the one the school is teaching. Certainly better than something like Go or Rust.
So there is nothing wrong with learning it.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: but don't ever expect me to use it in a business environment
And certainly not if you don't know it in the first place.
Although I have learned every new language I know on the job for the past 30 years.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: I'm at 20+ years.
Not sure how that is relevant. But just so it is clear I have 40 years of experience. And I have many years of experience in C, C++, Java, C# and SQL. Along with various other things.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: because it makes a difference in what they'll pay for you.
Maybe a thing in Europe?
In the US only time that matters for pay is where they are hiring MBA or PHD. And probably then only from specialty programs with published research. It was Big Data and now it is AI.
Only time I really experienced a degree concern in the US was in the era of 'IBM is great'. Certainly nothing since then. Unless of course the person has no work experience at all.
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jschell wrote: As a professional programmer the point is to deliver products/services for the company you work for. Not focus on odd ideals.
Not an odd ideal; I get paid for quality. That cannot be done in gwbasic.
jschell wrote: So there is nothing wrong with learning it
Learning is good  But no, I will never ever write a line of code that goes to production in phyton. Popular might be, but not safe.
jschell wrote: Although I have learned every new language I know on the job for the past 30 years.
In a non-school environment, you get a week to learn a language.
jschell wrote: In the US
Things different there.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: That cannot be done in gwbasic.
Not having used that specific dialect I cannot comment on that directly.
I did write Basic and maintained it. And certainly one can write code well using that language.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: I will never ever write a line of code that goes to production in phyton.
ok. But as I pointed out and demonstrated employers are looking for expertise. So presumably you will just tell them you won't work for them.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: In a non-school environment, you get a week to learn a language.
Yes I was writing code my second week. What is your point?
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Things different there.
First job post I found in Berlin does not seem to require a degree. Can you point out where it says a degree is required?
java job berlin - Google Search[^]
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jschell wrote: Not having used that specific dialect I cannot comment on that directly.
I did write Basic and maintained it. And certainly one can write code well using that language.
Similar to basic; I would not recommend it as a first language, but I do enjoy it for prototyping.
jschell wrote: ok. But as I pointed out and demonstrated employers are looking for expertise. So presumably you will just tell them you won't work for them.
Yeah, that can happen at multiple points. I do not consider it expertise to work in a language that is lacking. Moreover, I'll lecture you on the risks. That's what I am paid for.
jschell wrote: Yes I was writing code my second week. What is your point?
Week 3 passed. In 2 weeks, they'll explain functions.
jschell wrote: First job post I found in Berlin does not seem to require a degree. Can you point out where it says a degree is required?
Vacancies here often state that a degree of higher education is required, which I lack.
Right now, I'm a nuisance in class. She keeps insisting that I go, maybe to curb my bloody arrogance.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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#Worldle #481 4/6 (100%)
🟩🟩🟩⬜⬜↙️
🟩🟩🟩🟩⬜➡️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟨➡️
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🎉
https://worldle.teuteuf.fr
hard
had to use map
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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Not looking for a job. I'm just curious to know if there are any folks on CP that has ever hired another developer with their own money out of their own pocket or at least was given a budget to hire a team with and was responsible for. Where my peeps at?
I know Marc Clifton has hired contractors waaaaaaaay back in the day. He's an OG. Just curious to know who else.
Jeremy Falcon
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I could see that if so.
Totally a compliment Sander.
Jeremy Falcon
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Not recently, but there have been times when I've outsourced specific bits of development to other freelancers. They weren't employees however. For example, I had a guy (in Russia, as it happens) code up a DLL to implement a TAPI interface to a specific telephone exchange. He delivered on time, I paid on time, all pretty painless. Did it through one of the "job" sites, which is where I was getting most of my work at the time. Can't remember if it was Rent-a-Coder, PeoplePerHour or one of the others; I used several.
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Noice. Just curious to know how many CPains give back and/or value time, etc.
DerekT-P wrote: Rent-a-Coder
Oh man, I sooooooo remember that site. 
Jeremy Falcon
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Yep. I have a team of four who I'm responsible for. Hired two of them. The other two were here when I started. I work with our HR and senior management for bonuses, raises, etc.
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Nice man. How you like it? I know when I was doing it, I enjoyed being able to make a real impact but always missed actually coding.
Jeremy Falcon
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You can work 80 hour weeks. Or more.
Friend of mine wanted that. I recommended against it. At one place he would come in at 3am and code until about 11am, then act as the CTO until about 6pm. He generally also coded on the weekends. Fortunately the wife seemed to be ok with him being out of the house all the time.
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Pete sits in the corner and waves hand.
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Sorry buddy, I forgot to give you the obligatory shoutout.
It's because my Uber Eats order was messed up. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Jeremy Falcon
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Yes, I hired someone just last month, with my own money out of my own pocket! 
If this guy messes up, or even gets sick through no fault of his own, I am screwed.
Why, what do you want to know?
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Sander Rossel wrote: I am screwed
Good times. Good times. 
Sander Rossel wrote: Why, what do you want to know?
Nothing in particular. Just fishing around to see which peeps I have more in common with than not. Trying to get smarter with my online interactions.... trying to at least.
Hope your venture goes great btw.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Just fishing around to see which peeps I have more in common with than not.
So do we have more or less in common?
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Hope your venture goes great btw.
Thanks! So far so good, survived COVID and everything 
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Sander Rossel wrote: So do we have more or less in common?
Dunno yet. I think we do have some stuff in common, but it's also hard to tell in passing and online ya know. I do know that I tend to have more empathy for the PHB than most coders on here that never hired anymore and that can lead to interesting chats for sure. Like, I'm sure how you've seen some devs just want to be left alone and their silo, which works on a junior and maybe mid-level on smaller teams. But that doesn't work for senior level and so on. From the employer's perspective the dev never brings up issues, but from the dev's perspective they're always worried about timelines (they commit to) and coding. Just nice to chat about stuff like that with peeps who've been around the block.
Sander Rossel wrote: Thanks! So far so good, survived COVID and everything
Noice.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Like, I'm sure how you've seen some devs just want to be left alone and their silo, which works on a junior and maybe mid-level on smaller teams. But that doesn't work for senior level and so on.
I'd say that works in bigger companies if they do specialised work.
I'm in a small team now, with two programmers and sometimes a third for some additional expertise.
We can't afford a lone wolf right now.
It would mess up the team dynamic and work flow too much.
I simply don't have the work where someone can work alone for longer periods of time.
Programming complex systems with more than one person should always be a team effort, not a two-(or-more)-people-apart effort.
I'm keeping my employee informed, so he knows about upcoming deadlines and why they're important.
Also, if a deadline is not important I tell him too.
No sweat if an arbitrary deadline is a few days late.
I'm an employer, but also still very much a programmer 
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Sander Rossel wrote: We can't afford a lone wolf right now.
100% agree, except I'd add that the lone wolf doesn't really work to well even in a larger company. Even in a larger company, I still try to break down teams to be a max of no more than 10 people total... including QA/SDETs. So, you'd still get the small team dynamic. But, I was trying to be benign earlier because for me, CP is just a place to argue with people who have no experience in the subject they are arguing about. And well, that gets old. But totally agree with this.
Sander Rossel wrote: Programming complex systems with more than one person should always be a team effort, not a two-(or-more)-people-apart effort.
Preaching to the choir, buddy.
Sander Rossel wrote: why they're important.
That's a sign of good leadership. Creative people are rebellious by nature (we can make something better, new, etc.) but in my experience, if you let a dev know the why something is they'll usually accept it rather than just say "because I said so." Well, assuming they're good devs and assuming the why isn't totally off the wall.
Sander Rossel wrote: I'm an employer, but also still very much a programmer
Don't ever lose that man. Steve Jobs (or anyone who's intelligent) believed the best managers (which an employer is to start with) started off as a dev. Not one of the clowns who's in it for the money or to just tell other people what to do. Programmers inherently have more respect for someone being one of their own. They may not always say it for fear of getting fired, etc. But, it's true.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: CP The internet is just a place to argue with people who have no experience in the subject they are arguing about.
FTFY
We seem to agree on all accounts though, so no need to argue there.
A pretty rare phenomenon on the internet 
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Sander Rossel wrote: A pretty rare phenomenon on the internet
Jeremy Falcon
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Swindle discharge charged tradition (10)
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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